Author Topic: Spitfire master cylinder  (Read 2836 times)

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Offline ezuskin

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Spitfire master cylinder
« on: Saturday,November 28, 2015, 06:50:33 AM »
I just received new Girling MC and, as always, I'm in trouble before I even open the box. Big sticker on side of box that says using silicone brake fluid will void warranty. My car had silicon fluid when I bought it and I have been using for nearly 16 years with no issues. Any reason I should take that seriously?
Eddie
Europa TC
1972 2068R

Offline Grumblebuns

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Re: Spitfire master cylinder
« Reply #1 on: Saturday,November 28, 2015, 08:04:50 AM »
No personal experience but this article from Moss motors makes a pretty good read on types brake fluid. I've copied a small snippet of converting to silicon brake fluid. The conclusion is that for a particular MC the effects are unknown due to not knowing  the type of seal used. Follow the manufacturers recommendation. 

http://www.mossmotors.com/SiteGraphics/Pages/Brake_Fluid/brake_fluid_long.html

What About the Stories of Silicone Brake Fluid Causing Seals to swell?

These stories abound on the internet, but I have not actually spoken to the person it happened to, so I cannot comment on the actual incident that started the story. We do know that it is very, very unlikely that a brake fluid meeting FMVS 116 would do that. The testing is designed to make that sort of thing impossible. I can tell you that the literature is full of reference to the grotesquely swollen and gooey seals that you get if the brake system is contaminated with petroleum based oils or solvents. It does not take much of this kind of contamination to ruin all of the seals in a system. The contamination can usually be traced to the use of improper cleaners, rags contaminated with motor oil or grease, or handling the seal with hands that have petroleum based contaminants on them. We have tried to duplicate these reported problems by soaking brake cups in DOT 5 fluid, but we have never found a problem. However, these stories have a life of their own and it is doubtful that they will ever go away. It is perhaps a modern version of the traditional British natural rubber brake seal warning about using “the wrong fluid”.

Converting from Glycol to Silicone Fluid – The Decision

The decision to convert from Girling or Lockheed (or whatever you are using) brake fluid to silicone fluid is not a decision to make lightly. If you have been using a glycol based fluid and never had any issues, I suggest you stay with it. Implement a calendar based flush and fill routine to keep the brake fluid fresh and reduce the chance of a water contamination caused brake system failure. Regular fluid changes will also minimize the chance of corrosion damage. Talk to your mechanic about testing brake fluid if that appeals to you; just keep in mind that you should be testing for both copper and water in the brake fluid. If you are thinking of changing, the decision is not necessarily an easy one. With a modern car, the manufacturer specifies what you should use, and you can have confidence that the entire braking system has been designed with that specific brake fluid in mind. With our British classics, we don’t have that luxury. The specifications given when the cars were new are irrelevant. If you are considering a change, talk to members of your club. Find out what the people who have a car like yours are running. Spend some time on the various forums. If several people have made the switch to silicone and are happy with the results, you can seriously consider making the switch yourself. Why take these steps? All brake fluid, glycol or silicone based, must swell brake system seals to form tight seals and help prevent leaks. The maximum amount of swelling is also specified in the FMVS 116 testing. This defines a range of seal expansion that is “within tolerance.” This also means that different fluids can react with a given type of seal differently and still be within the specifications. Just because the fluid you are using is working fine does not mean another brand of brake fluid, even one that meets the same specification, will work just as well because it may not affect the seals in exactly the same way. In some master cylinders, for example, seals can swell so much that the relief port is blocked, which results in brakes that don’t release because the fluid cannot be pushed back into the master cylinders as the wheel cylinders retract. While brake fluid manufacturers will certify that their fluid meets BMW, Ford or GM specifications, they cannot be expected to say their fluid will work in an MG TD master cylinder.

Converting from Glycol to Silicone Fluid

If you do decide to convert to silicone fluid, it should be done as part of a total brake system overhaul, with freshly rebuilt or new calipers, wheel cylinders and master cylinder. Silicone fluid should not be added to a system that contains even small amounts of glycol fluid or contaminants. Merely bleeding the system is not enough, as there will be pockets of old fluid and sludge that will not bleed out. Silicone fluid tends to concentrate any residual glycol fluid, moisture and sludge into slugs instead of allowing their dispersal throughout the fluid, as does glycol fluid. This can lead to relatively severe but localized problems, rather than the more general system deterioration experienced with old moisture-laden glycol fluids. This may be a factor in reports of leakage when silicone fluid is used in non-rebuilt systems that had been operated with glycol fluid. A "new" system full of silicone fluid will require very little maintenance for years.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Spitfire master cylinder
« Reply #2 on: Saturday,November 28, 2015, 08:36:36 AM »
Interesting article Joji, and to be honest I had never considered it to be a problem. When silicone fluid was introduced over here in the UK to the classic car market I can remember the advice to build a new system to be sure that no conventional fluid remained, but don't recall anything about needing specialist seals as well.

To the OP - I've fitted 2 Spitfire tandem cylinders in the last couple of years (different cars, don't start worrying ! ) and neither had any warning such as you describe on their boxes. Could this be a sticker that's added just for your USA market ?

Brian

Offline Grumblebuns

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Re: Spitfire master cylinder
« Reply #3 on: Saturday,November 28, 2015, 11:05:45 AM »
The previous master cylinder was a Girling. If it worked with no issues all of these years with silicon brake fluid, then with the Spitfire MC  there should be no compatibility issues with the existing fluid.

Just to be safe, I would soak the piston in the silicon brake fluid for a week or so and see how the seals hold up.


Offline jbcollier

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Re: Spitfire master cylinder
« Reply #4 on: Saturday,November 28, 2015, 11:58:24 AM »
It's still important to flush the brake system every few years. Condensation builds up in the brake system regardless of the type of fluid used — DOT 5 just doesn’t absorb it as DOT 3/4/5.1 do. The build up of condensation can cause corrosion and, not as well known, sudden brake failure if the fluid is heated so the moisture content boils. Most people really don’t stress their vehicles brake system very much at all. They mostly tootle around with the odd bit of speed thrown in for some excitement. If they go to a track day, or go down a long mountain pass, suddenly their brake system is stressed, heat builds up and the brake pedal bangs to the floor. Let me tell you, even if you survive unscathed, that is a life changing experience.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Spitfire master cylinder
« Reply #5 on: Saturday,November 28, 2015, 10:53:00 PM »
That's an interesting point JB, something I'd never even considered but which makes a whole lot of sense. If a system breathes then it's open to atmospheric moisture regardless of whether the fluid absorbs it or not - yep, I get that.  I had heard that because it didn't absorb moisture if water got into the system you could get slugs building up at a low point but never before seen the reasoning like you've posted.  Which is a bit sneaky for the industry....

I'm not really interested in silicone fluids on the principle that I'll have to rebuild calipers to change seals, keep them clear of rust, etc, so changing fluid is no big deal. But the press over here was very much on the "fit and forget" mantra with silicones and after you made that point, it clearly isn't the case.

Brian

Offline BDA

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Re: Spitfire master cylinder
« Reply #6 on: Sunday,November 29, 2015, 06:25:26 PM »
More interesting info from you, John. I had thought that if there was an application for DOT5 (silicone) brake fluid, it would be on a street car because it wasn't supposed to absorb moisture and it would be virtually a lifetime fill, but you shot that up!

Having said that, I've never been a fan of silicone brake fluid - possibly because I don't have up to date information. I was under the impression that it was thicker than glycol based fluid and thus would be harder to bleed. I also thought that that made it an especially poor choice for a Europa given the many places air bubbles could be trapped, but i guess ezuskin proved me wrong on that score! Even so, I think I'll stick with DOT 4.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Spitfire master cylinder
« Reply #7 on: Sunday,November 29, 2015, 08:22:15 PM »
DOT 5 fluid doesn't attack paint nor absorb water.  It is ever so slightly compressible and may give a wee bit softer pedal.  I've never used it so I can't comment on any bleeding issues.  Racers don't use it but that may be because they're cheap ;-)

Offline BDA

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Re: Spitfire master cylinder
« Reply #8 on: Sunday,November 29, 2015, 08:33:47 PM »
Yes, not attacking paint is a good thing and I had forgotten about the compressibility. I did know some racers who used it back in the '70s. It seemed to me it was particularly bad for race cars. Besides the softer pedal, you would certainly open the brake lines long before you would worry about moisture. Of course the boiling pint of silicone fluid is higher but I never had a problem with brakes if they were bled properly but then maybe I wasn't going fast enough!  :)

Offline ezuskin

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Re: Spitfire master cylinder
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday,December 02, 2015, 08:10:55 PM »
Re bleeding. Can't say I ever had any challenge with bleeding. I use silicone cause it came with car back in 2000. I switched to speed bleeders a while back and last time I had stuff apart a few years ago I ran through system with a mighty vac which seemed like it got all the air out but I still did not have great pedal til I ran through one more time using pedal and speed bleeder.
Eddie
Europa TC
1972 2068R