Evans waterless coolant

[jbcollier]

Anyone have experience with Evans waterless coolant in a Europa or similar cooling system (Elan, etc)?

(Not much in KB)

John

[blasterdad]

Found some interesting discussions about it here...
http://www.3si.org/forum/f11/dumping-evans-coolant-go-back-conventional-setup-206021/

[jbcollier]

Yup, read it all and more besides.  Just wondering if anyone has actual, hands-on, practical experience: i.e. I did it and  xyz happened, etc.

[EuropaTC]

I can't help with the practical experience but as you mentioned use in the Elan, this topic has been discussed several times on the Elan forum with some of the guys getting into the detail and some guys there who have used it in their cars.     A couple of threads in case these haven't already been part of your research;

http://www.lotuselan.net/forums/lotus-twincam-f39/water-less-coolant-t27028.html  (3 pages + more links)

and to show such topics resurrect themselves on a regular basis, from the previous year....    

http://www.lotuselan.net/forums/lotus-twincam-f39/waterless-coolants-t26119.html

Sadly, it's just one of those modernization things that I don't get.  I get the higher boiling point, lower pressure in the system and can even go along with the idea of more uniform cooling in potential hot spots but that's where it leaves me. I've only ever had two engines boil over, one was a Hillman Imp with a leaking head gasket and the other was my Europa when the belt snapped, neither of which problems would have been solved by not having water in the system. It's not the coolant which screws me, it's the driver....

I also get the "no water, no corrosion" aspect, but is this really a problem with even basic anti-freeze mixtures ? One less thing to worry about and it will do away with the coolant changes every few years but without upgrading all the rubber components it just isn't going to be a "fit and forget" solution as some folks claim.

Having said all that I'm still open minded, so the debate is still of interest to me. "Never say never" and all that.....

Brian

[jbcollier]

Yes, I have read those threads as well, thanks.  I have a freshly rebuilt motor, new pipes, pump, hoses, clamps, rad, etc so it would be an ideal time to switch.  However, the ability to run hotter, and the fact it seemingly does, does not mean the engine will be happy running hotter thus my request for those with actual experience.

[BDA]

At about $40/gal, it seems pretty expensive, but at about 2 1/2 gal capacity and a real lifetime fill (not like Mercedes saying that you don't have to change your automatic transmission fluid), it doesn't seem that expensive. And as you say, if you're going to do it, now is the time. The one thing Jay and the Evans guy didn't discuss is the lubricity for the water pump, but the implication is that it is not an issue. It also seems like it's advantageous for cars that are expected to sit up for periods of time.

I might consider it. Of course, I'd need to use their prep fluid so that would be even more expensive. 

[EuropaTC]

I suspect you'll struggle to find meaningful practical experience over in the UK because it's not been around long enough.  I don't know if it's any better over your side of the pond, but here I started to notice it probably 3-4yrs ago (although my memory for dates is poor, so it might be longer ?).

The reason I'm sounding so pessimistic on that is because such things like an extra 3-7C running temperature (as claimed by Evans) isn't going to leap out and hit you in the short term. It might not even be a problem long term but at the back of my mind is things like rubber, etc, degrade with operating temperature and hence the service life could reasonably be expected to shorten at higher temperatures.  But such details are going to be 5 or more years down the line, not in the first few years and maybe never on a car that's infrequently used.

Anyway, a few guys on the Elan forum tried it and to my knowledge no-one has reported faults, all have said "works well, will use again" which is a guarded positive endorsement.

I can't see any reason why the Evans coolant won't work or deliver the benefits they claim and the only reason I've not had a go myself is that I'm skeptical if the benefits are truly beneficial in looking after my toys.  I'm not particularly interested in the novelty of a non-pressurized cooling system, I was looking for comments like "I regularly get 5mpg better mileage" or "I get another 15bhp on the dyno compared with water" but I haven't seen any.

One reference from your side of the pond that I found I'm enclosing just in case you've not seen it.  Now I assume this is biased given the sponsorship and the writing style certainly comes across as "their product is junk",  but some of the report makes interesting reading. 

I was particularly concerned with cylinder head temperatures being higher, which they claimed to have measured and I think, given the nature of the products, could be reasonable.  With the difference of expansion coefficients of Steel/CI vs Aluminium I did pause to wonder how long term use would affect head gasket performance ?  The temperature data I'd seen before this report concentrated on either removal of localised boiling (which I can't measure/don't know if it's a problem I have) or the bulk coolant temperature rise, which is what you can easily measure although not necessarily what you should be concerned over.

So I'm still on the fence. Here's the report I mentioned in case you've not seen it already.  I'd be interested in any references you've found detailing real world gains which are independent of "I'm selling this stuff" bias.

http://www.norosion.com/evanstest.htm  (suspected bias but they do have lab reports and "numbers" )

Brian

[BDA]

That's an interesting article, Brian. I was initially skeptical of it because of the somewhat fantastic detail of the analysis but then they might actually be able to measure the things they claim because they are in that business but then again, that makes them a suspect source.

I don't know enough to say that the increase in cylinder head temps they say they saw are high enough to cause pre-ignition that they saw, but 5 - 7 octane numbers and retarding the spark by 8 - 10^o seem like a lot!

I am also surprised that none of the Evans users reported higher coolant temps given the lower specific heat of Evans and the marginal cooling systems of any Lotus - or do Elans actually have an adequately sized radiator?

The reduction in pressure is a positive for head gasket concerns, I would think. That, the fact that you don't ever have to change it, and it's not poisonous caught my attention, but if you're hoses are rubber, you'll have to change them and thus will still have to deal with draining your coolant.

A quick look at the Evans website doesn't shed any light on technical aspects like specific heat, but in trying to find that out, I found this link (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2930974) which has a pretty lively discussion on Evans and also No-Rosion's analysis.

I certainly did not read everything there was on Evans, but I've now come to a conclusion for myself (this post is getting a life of its own!). i don't think I would use it. Primarily because of the difference in specific heat. That is easy to measure and thus rebut if it was reported inaccurately. The lower value for Evans would mean that my thermostat would be open more often (all the time?) and since the only real enhancement to my cooling system is my aluminum radiator and my oil cooler, I would expect higher temps than I would like.  In fact, I had set my fan controller to give me an acceptable temp in the summer but found that in cooler weather, the water temp was cooler than I'd like which indicates that the system is adequate but somewhat marginal. If I had drastically enhanced the cooling system I might consider Evans. The rest of the No-Rosion analysis, I take with a grain of salt.

[jbcollier]

Yes, I have read that as well.  Unfortunately the Norosion chaps/chappettes used an antifreeze testing protocol that mixes the antifreeze with water (ASTM D1384).  Evans is not designed to be combined with water.  Evans has a rebuttal posted here (scroll down):

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2584466/2

[jbcollier]

Actually more interesting is the post just above the rebuttal.  A chap with a Hemi which was constantly overheating and blowing hoses, seals and rads.  Switched to Evans and his overheating problems were solved.

[blasterdad]

From what I have researched, it's just propylene glycol, commonly used in the food industry because it is non-toxic. These companys are taking a common product, supposidly mixing their special "additives" calling it something else, then selling it for 100 x what they bought it for.
RV antifreeze is the same thing, 2-$5 a gallon at Wal-Mart.
Amsoil also makes it and, once again, around $50 a gallon.
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/other-products/antifreeze/antifreeze-and-engine-coolant/?code=ANT1G-EA
Call me a pessimistic old fool if you want, (guilty ) but if I was going to run this stuff I'd go to Wal-Mart & fill my car for $10.
 

[BDA]

Interesting link, John. Maybe fears about elevated temps are unjustified. It is nice to see a rebuttal from Evans. I am still a little worried about a marginal cooling system like mine but maybe I shouldn't be. Since that is my only real objection to it (other than cost and hassle), it may be something I'll look into in the future.

Blaster, you might be right that RV antifreeze would work as well, but I'd be more comfortable using either the Evans or Amsoil products as they were specifically designed for engine cooling.

John, it seemed from your comments on the yahoo group that you're going ahead with the Evans product. Please keep us informed about your experiences.

[jbcollier]

Will do but it's just one step in a long project.

[EuropaTC]

I also saw your post on the Yahoo group JB, so I'm also interested in how you get along with it. Certainly if it's one of those "I wonder" things then a newly rebuilt engine with dry system is definitely the time to try it.

Thanks for the link to the response, I'd not managed to find it and it's an interesting read. Now I know I'm getting old and crusty because by the time I'd finished I'd come to the conclusion that both parties (Evans/Norosion) are like two kids scrapping in the playground and you don't know who to believe.   

The corrosion tests are academic so it makes no difference if they are applicable or not. Any metallurgist is going to say corrosion won't be a problem with either system and in truth I was surprised norosion did that. However I suppose it's their game, they will be set up to do lab tests and so as it's an industry standard they will turn the handle on it. There are "red herrings" in both the Evans site and Norosion's report, the only thing I did latch on to was the increase in head temperatures they measured which would concern me with an aluminium head on a steel/CI block.

I'm surprised at the cost given the fact it's basically propylene glycol but I don't know the value of the inhibitors they're adding so I'll accept it.  Economically if it lasts 10yrs against 5x2yr fills of 25% antifreeze then I reckon it's ok.    It's not so good when stacked against modern OAT antifreeze mixtures which apparently have a 5yr life, or the stuff in my Cayman which, Porsche say, never needs changing.  I was skeptical but I'm sure they'd be delighted to charge me for a coolant flush if they could. (If you're interested, Porsche spec works out at £2.50/litre via a specialist, I checked )

So I'll watch this topic with interest.  I still have that nagging doubt that it's an excellent idea in search of a problem to solve rather than something that's a step change in development, but as I said before, "never say never".

Brian