Decision Time - Is This Worth the Effort?

[Firm]

Alright, this is a long story but for everyones sake I am going to keep it as short as possible...

I stumbled across an S2 Europa sitting in a very weird location. I got in touch with the owner and now I have the opportunity to purchase the car. It's been sitting here on gravel for something like 7 or 8 years. The car appears to be complete with the original engine and transmission. Mechanical condition is unknown, fiberglass hood is broken (right near the hinges), paint is junk, seats are good but the carpet is rough and the dash is peeling. Safe to assume that the brake and clutch hydraulics are shot from sitting. Because the car is so low and the tires are flat I cannot get underneath very much to see the condition of the frame.

Here are some pics from a couple months ago,sorry for the poor quality. I will try to get some better ones next time I visit the car.









The owner needs to move the car and has given me the option of buying it before he moves it to another location, but I need to decide fast. So:
1. When I go back to view the car this weekend what are the key things/areas I need to look at to determine whether the car is worth saving?
2. What is the car worth in it's current state?

Some extra context: I already have a 69 Europa S2 that I bought about 5 years ago, the previous owner swapped in a 13B rotary which apparently ran well at some point. I've fiddled with the car a bit a few years ago, but it's basically spent the last 5 year sitting in the garage waiting for me to finish my other projects. I also have an MGB and a Triumph Spitfire which I am just about finished rebuilding.

[BDA]

You certainly don't want for more projects!

I would guess the car is worth about $2000, maybe a bit more but I don't know much about S2s so somebody might likely have better a better idea of its value. You know nothing about the state of the engine and transaxle which are probably the most expensive parts to deal with. I assume that the engine can be rebuilt. The transaxle could need replacement. Original trannies are likely hard to find but with some money, time, and fabrication work, you can get an NG3 five speed. Fiberglass is easy to work with. Interior, brake, and suspension parts are easy to come by. Since the body is in good shape, the frame probably is too, but it likely has some rust. The amount of rust on the frame would probably be my primary concern. If it is rusted and since it's probably not bent, it can be fix by somebody who is handy with a welder. For more $$, you can get a Spyder, or Banks frame that is better. Given its age and how long it's been sitting out in the weather, I would at least be prepared to drop the frame.

A lot depends on what you want to do with it. You could probably get it running for not too much money - assuming the engine and tranny are good - or you could pour your heart and soul into it and make a fantastic car out of it. It all depends on how ambitious you are and how much you want to spend on it.

MGBs and Spitfires are fun cars and if you like the wind in your hair so much the better, but the difference in driving experience between a B or a Spitfire and a good Europa is night and day. I will also say that if you are looking for attention, then there is no contest - the Europa will just about stop traffic.

That's my $0.02. Hopefully more people will offer their opinions to give you another angle.

Good luck and keep us informed about what you do that that car or your other one with the Mazda motor.

[blasterdad]

 
But what the car is actually  worth is purely speculative... I would at least jack it up, look under it, & see if the engine is seized up. Depending on what you discover would be my determining factor as to how much to offer. Looks like a great parts car at the very least, & since you already have an S2 I would jump on it...

[Firm]

Thanks guys. Last time I saw it I was in my suit from work and didn't want to crawl right around it, but I am planning to go back tomorrow in more suitable clothing to get a good look at the car and I'll report back.

[jbcollier]

In a field for 8 years?  It is going to need a complete overhaul.  If you are lucky, the frame will be ok.  Everything else?  Plan on replacing or overhauling.  If this is in a damp climate, scratch the frame as well.  The seats may look ok but, most likely, the foam will be rotten.  If you LIKE overhauling vehicles, and have the resources, go for it.  If not, it is ALWAYS cheaper to buy a vehicle already in good condition.  Sorry to be so grumpy but I'm hard at doing up an S1 and just opened up this month's Visa bill :-(

[EuropaTC]

Hi, and 

Is the car worth saving ? Certainly, I've seen far worse projects taken on and to me that is a good one because it looks very original.  Is it worth YOU saving the car ? I don't know. If you like having something in the workshop to play with then yes. If you want something you can drive within a month or so, then no, because I can see at least 12 months work there.   If you spread your hobby time between other cars, then we could be looking at years before it's a finished road car.

I'm with JB's assessment  (and I don't think it's grumpy, just realistic).   The body & glass look good but 8 years standing outside will mean everything will be rusted and at the very least will mean complete dismantle/clean/replace. If it's sitting on damp grass then I'd also say the chassis/frame will be heavily rusted and need at the very minimum cleaning & painting.  But assuming the chassis looks solid then before I'd drive it on public roads my list would be something like

• replace bearings, bushes and bottom swivels on the front suspension - same as your Spitfire
• Overhaul/clean steering rack, new bottom joint if it's a steel/rubber one like the early Spitfires
• at least check rear driveshaft UJ's & bearings, replace all rubber bushes if remotely suspect. ANY significant wear or movement back there is bad news.
• new dampers & springs all round.
• Overhaul front calipers, rear cylinders, master cylinder. Replace brake discs, pads, shoes, hoses and lines if steel - very similar to Spitfire again.
• 8 years standing outside ?  new tyres all round.

That looks a long list but it's easy stuff and relatively cheap because most parts are similar to your experience with Spitfires, etc.  Writing it down probably makes it look more daunting than it really is and assuming the engine/gearbox will at least start up and move, you'll have a car that feels like a Lotus to drive.  If you have the cash for parts then you'll get to that stage very quickly - a few weekends ?  So you're at a point to decide if you like the style/ride/handling and if it's worthwhile to spend more on paint, etc.

But if you like it, then the list stretches out for months as JB says;  new paint, new dash & carpets, instruments and electrical connections cleaning & checking, etc. Engine ? Gearbox ? unknown quantities, simple but possibly costly to overhaul.  So a long term project, but from what I've seen a very worthwhile one, that car should definitely be restored.

Is it for you ? Only you can answer that one but we'd all love to have another Europa owner & restoration project on the forum !

Brian

[Firm]

Firstly, thanks everyone for the detailed responses, it's very helpful and I am impressed by the enthusiasim there is on this forum for these cars. I am glad I found this place and at the very least I am sure I'll stick around for when I start working on the rotary swapped car.

I did go back to the yellow car this morning and took a better look and some better photos. The car is rough, and it's sitting so low that there's no way I could get under it at all to see the frame. Photos pretty much speak for themselves, but my biggest concern is the left front control arm seems to either be broken, or like it's broken away from the frame?? I took the best photo I could of it and posted it below with the rest. My fear is that the mounting point where the arm mounts to the frame has rotted and broken away, which would require some extensive repair.
Probably safe to assume the engine is seized as well, the coolant has turned to powder, lol.

I am going to speak with the owner tonight or tomorrow and see if I can get some questions answered. I looked back at my notes from when when I last spoke to him about the car a year or so ago and I have the following info:
-Car hasn't been run since the early 80's
-He has a NOS replacement dash (not sure if he's talking about the door facia, or the complete assembly)
-Has a factory repair manual
-Car was imported to Canada from Italy in the 70's
-Apparently it's a 1967 (I has mistakenly thought it was a 69)

[EuropaTC]

hmmm. Looking at those latest photos I'm struck by how low the car is sitting and how far up the wheel arches the rear wheels are. Almost as if the car is resting on the floor and not it's suspension.  And given how much rust is present on the caliper/spring/wishbone in the first shot, I'd be pessimistic on the chassis. I'm sure it will be repairable but by a welding set and steel plate and not just a wire brush and new paint.

I can see a lot of work there and if your desire is for a car you can drive in the near future, then as JB said, a running car is always going to be cheaper in the long run. 

But as a project, yes, I think I'd be tempted. All down to cost, if the owner thinks he has the basis for a £25k car there and charges accordingly (UK prices I'm familiar with) then no, it won't work. The restoration costs are likely to outstrip the resale value unless you can do 90% of the work yourself.  If it's sold on the basis of the sum of usable parts and not some future concours winning car then it could be a very satisfying project because it looks too good to scrap completely.

Brian

[jbcollier]

It's not a 1967.  It's a type 65 so 1969 or newer.  Frame is TOAST.  You will need replacement frame.  They are available new and sometimes used.  Not as big a deal as it sounds as the body lifts right off.  Open carb, nice.  Expect the engine to be seized solid and require major work to repair.  You are looking at one heck of a project there.

[BDA]

Brian is correct, of course. This will require a lot of work and you should consider the price based on the parts you see and don't see and not the potential. Looking at it closer, $2000 may be generous. If you are to do it up right, it will be a frame off restoration including an engine rebuild. The transaxle should definitely be gone through, too. The potential is there for a really nice car but expect to put more money into it than it will be worth when you're finished.

I would get it if:

• the price is good - maybe $1500 or less
• you enjoy a challenge and don't mind putting in a lot of work and a bit of money
• you will enjoy driving it when it's done
• if you enjoy being creative - Europas seem to attract people who do some outrageous and creative mods, engine swaps, etc.

Europas are actually pretty simple cars (not unlike your B and Spitfire). In spite of their age and limited production, parts availability is pretty good. You probably should expect to put at least $20,000 into it to get it up to a "like new" condition but the good thing is that will be over the length of your restoration. Of course, if you're the creative, boy-racer type, you can spend a lot more and in the end have something truly unique. For that matter, if you get it on the road at all, you'll have something very unique!

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing. If you get it, we'll want to see a steady stream of pictures of your progress! 

[Firm]

Thanks for the help everyone. The opinions here all seem to jive, so it's making sense to me. I think I am going to pass on this one, hate to do it because there things are hard to come by (even though I've accidentally "found" 2 more in similar states just this year...I think someone somewhere wants me in a second Europa!) and I do recognize that there is a lot of potential here. But, with everything on my plate right now (7 cars total, home reno project, real job, part-time job, wedding planning, etc) it's just a terrible time for me to jump into yet another project.

If anyone is interested in the car PM me and I can put you in touch with the owner...

[BDA]

You do have a lot on your plate. It makes sense to pass this by, but it's a shame. Hopefully someone will pick it up and bring it back to what it should be.

[3929R]

From my quick read of this thread I think you did the smart thing by passing on this one. That said, I hope  the current owner doesn't just move it from its current location to its final resting place.... what a shame.

[andyl999]

That steering wheel and horn centre alone would sell for £275 ($440) over here in the UK!

[Firm]

So I told the owner what I'd discovered about the frame and that I'd decided to pass on the car for it being a larger project than I'd originally bargained for. He's a nice enough guy, lives out of town a few hours from where the car is located and it should like he just wants it gone at this point. I am reasonably well connected in the local enthusiast circles, so I offered to ask around to see if anyone is interested, but I als thought I post here one more time.
 
I'd rather not talk $ in a public forum, but if anyone would be interested in the car send me a PM and we can talk.

Failing finding someone who needs/wants it I may end up buying it myself and just sticking it in the corner of the shop for whenever life allows me some time for it.