Brake Line Flares - Help!

[Grumblebuns]

Looking at the photos of the tip of your tube, the opening looks a bit deformed, not concentric with the diameter of the tube itself. Any irregularity at the tip will cause a deformed flare.

[BERNIEHUMBER]

HI:
I had a few problems with the same set as you.
Try using a larger size pipe/tube cutter as I found I was using to much pressure on the cutting wheel with each rotation causing a slightly deformed cut.
It had to have been slight in nature because I just went to a larger sized cutter(because I could find the smaller version) and it all worked out.

[TurboFource]

I stuck the tubing barely out of the other side of the tool and used it as a guide and filed the tubing flush to the tool….deburred the inside with my pocket knife…

[Grumblebuns]

Bernie's post got me thinking that your tube cutting technique could be the source for your problem.
 
1. Make sure that your cutting wheel is sharp on your tubing cutter. You have to use a tubing cutter for square cuts
2. You may be using too great of a force on your initial cut deforming the tube. On the first cut, use a light amount of force on the wheel.
3. On subsequent cuts, increase the amount of force slightly.
4. After the wheel starts cutting into the tube, you can increase the amount of force until the tube is cut.

As I stated earlier, the center of the tubing hole has to be perfectly round, burr free and concentric with the tubing diameter.
Minimize the amount of metal removal by excessive deburring and sanding of the tube end.

IF you are still having deformed flares after all of the above, I give up.
     

[EuropaTC]

Looking again at those photos I must admit I'm struggling. I've no inside knowledge on how these tools work so this is pure guesswork...

On the failed flares it looks to me as if the bottom part of the flare made against the die holder is always right. I'd guess that this part is formed first as the die screws down, compresses the tube and tries to push it backwards until it meets the base of the die. Once it meets resistance I'm guessing that the top part of the flare is formed as the die screws further in. There's a friction/rotation effect with the to flare, not so much with the base flare ?

If the tubing is too high in the die holder then if you keep ramping down the metal has got to go somewhere and it looks to me as if it's spreading over/sideways.Why you would get some flares perfect and others failing is a real puzzle.

Maybe the perfect ones moved slightly downwards in the die holder and that's the reason, these are random thoughts with no great knowledge behind them. In some of the photos I can see grip marks on the tube which I guess are from the base of the die holder, I think on your next test run I'd mark the end of the tube as it comes out of the holder and see if it moves at all.

Given how much trouble you're having the other experiment I'd try is shortening the amount of tube sticking through as posted earlier. Set it correctly according to the levelling die, mark on the tube where it sticks out and then lower it by 1mm, that might be too much but see what happens.   

These tools are mass produced and there's always the chance the dimensions are off slightly and that's causing your problems.  If you do have access to another tool then I'd try that, preferably with the owner present so they can see if you're doing something wrong that we've not picked up on.

[Dilkris]

OK - thanks everyone for taking the time to comment - I am not clever enough to understand how to write one mail encompassing copies of multiple comments from various members so....

Regarding how the brake pipe is cut and dressed I have tried everything I can think of ie:-

1. Cut with pipe cutter and internally deburred with a deburring tool.
2. Cut with pipe cutter and then removed internal burr with 3mm drill bit.
3. Cut with angle grinder, dressed square on fine stone bench grinding wheel, added external chamfer, deburred with wire wheel.
4. Cut with pipe cutter and do nothing with the finished cut face.

All of the above made no difference.

Lubrication - I have tried the suppled die grease, engine oil, gearbox oil - no difference.
Quality of pipe - I have 3 rolls of brake pipe from differing sources - tried all - no difference.

Speed of forming - I have tried winding in the die slowly and quickly - no difference.

I was very interested in a comment made of the die transmitting a turning moment to the pipe whilst forming the flare, this causing the effect I am experiencing. This to me is highly plausible. When you look at the +£150 tools for creating brake pipe flares, the clamping arrangement of the pipe is more or less identical BUT the die is pressed into the pipe, there is no turning moment exerted.

Many people have used these tools with zero problem so I believe my problem is in the tool and the machined tolerances; I cannot remember for the life of me where I bought it from. There is no manufacturers or suppliers name on the instruction sheet so maybe its a poor copy.

I am now going into the workshop to collect the tool, put it in the box it came in, and hurl it as far as I can over the rear fence. It won't result in me producing brake pipe flares but I guarantee it will make me feel better.

My next post on the subject will be how far it went......

Thankyou all for your thoughts, comments and taking the time to post. :thumbup:

[4129R]

Beware of neighbours' greenhouses.

Buy a decent vice held tool and sell it when you have finished.

[Elanman39]

I concur with Alex (4129R)  I have made many brakes pipes for various cars over the years and the "proper" press type tool I bought after so many miserable experiences with DIY tools has saved a lot of wasted pipes and time.  If you don't want to buy one ask around your local garages or even better, race prep shops.  Most will have just such a tool and will probably be happy to allow you to use it at their premises to make your pipes up for the price a a beer or two . If you are out in the boonies with no racers nearby then agricultural engineers may be a good alternative option!
Best, Nick

[Grumblebuns]

Before you toss the tool, bring it to a mechanic and let him try it out. If his flares come out like yours, then its the tool. If the flares are good then its you.

[jbcollier]

I have used similar tool for decades with no issues.  I remove the burr from cutting the pipe but otherwise don’t fuss that much.  So, obviously, you have a defective tool.  Possibly a bit too much play so the tool shifts sideways, or a misshaped end.  Who knows.

[Dilkris]

OK - go figure this then..... :dontknow:
I borrow my friends identical tool - produces 5 consecutive perfect flares from 3 separate rolls of brake pipe... !!!
I followed the exact same procedure as before....
Doesn't make sense does it ??
What a journey.....
I hope my experience of this will be of help to others.
PS: Haven't hammered the original tool into the ground yet - will post pictures later..... !!
Thankyou everybody for your input - will be a 6 beer night this end for me....

[EuropaTC]

I am now going into the workshop to collect the tool, put it in the box it came in, and hurl it as far as I can over the rear fence. It won't result in me producing brake pipe flares but I guarantee it will make me feel better.

My next post on the subject will be how far it went......

 
I just love that comment.

You sir, are a genuine Lotus owner.....    with the (mental) scars to prove it.  Rest assured you're amongst friends !

Like John I'm actually suspecting the tool itself because although it looks ok in the photos but might be on the edge of tolerance somewhere.  I also don't take that much care about cutting the pipe, I use  the same cutter you've got but with very light pressure and it takes a few minutes to make the cut. I'll de-burr the bore with whatever's handy and then go for it.

Since this discussion started my memory has improved and I'm on the second of such tools. The first was the same design dies & holder but different handle and method of setting the brake tube height. That was the Draper one and I bought it in the 70s and used it until the threads wore and started chipping. The current one is like yours and it's made pipes for 2x MR2's, a set for the Elan when I went dual circuit and loads of pipes for the Europa as I've changed brake systems/components over the last 10yrs or so.

So the cheap versions can work and if you're going to invest again, just go for one from a company with a reputation for good kit rather than Ebay ? 

Edit to add - you must have posted the same time I did. I think that just about nails it on the tool, you've got a duff 'un. And mine's in a plastic box like that one as well.....

[BDA]

I am now going into the workshop to collect the tool, put it in the box it came in, and hurl it as far as I can over the rear fence. It won't result in me producing brake pipe flares but I guarantee it will make me feel better.

My next post on the subject will be how far it went......

Thankyou all for your thoughts, comments and taking the time to post. :thumbup:

I agree with everything EuropaTC said. That is the best comment I've seen in a LONG time!!! I am sorry it was at your expense.

BTW - How far did it go?