Braking News

[jbcollier]

The original brakes on a Europa were considered top-of-class in their day.  Roads and technology have improved since then and they are still very good but tend to fade under severe use.

I did the usual complete overhaul with minor upgrades: new slotted rotors (limited value) and EBC GreenStuff pads.  Brakes were great until I hit one steep, long mountain pass with a lot of switchbacks.  The brake pads overheated and faded (pedal still hard and rotors did not discolour).  Scary but not catastrophic.

I then fit uprated pads from Mintex.  Again, good braking but I didn’t get a chance to try them on that same mountain pass.  Another lister suggested I try Hawkeye Blues so I gave those a go.  OMG, stunning braking!  Amazing bite, power and, most importantly, modulation was astounding.

But, until the rotors warmed up, braking was extremely noisy and rough — sounded and felt like they were metal on metal.  (Yes, I completely sanded the discs and followed the bedding in procedure). 

So, I’m back to sanding the discs again and refitting the Mintex pads.  I’m off on a 5K trip through BC and will hit the same pass again.  I’ll report on how it does… unless I lose my brakes and do a swan dive to eternity.  In which case please take my future silence as the brakes not quite being up to snuff yet.

John

[BDA]

Interesting JB! Were your pads off the shelf or did you have them made up (I seem to remember a company a long time ago who would make pads from a tracing).

[jbcollier]

"Spitfire" pads are available off the shelf in a wide variety of compounds.

[GavinT]

Yes, interesting.

Trawling back into my foggy memory banks, I was put onto pads named "Black Flash" back in the day. I'm not now sure if they were Hawk pads or not. This all came about because the much vaunted Ferodo DS11's were being phased out due to the asbestos content, if I recall. Anyway, they were pretty good.

But I went looking and Pegasus have a comparison table for those (like me) who weren't aware. (Link below)
The Black (M) have a lower temp working range than the Blue (E) but with a little less initial bite . . or maybe even the Street-Race (R).

I wonder which is the Goldilocks pad.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/document.asp?DocID=TECH00062

[cazman]

Sorry I don't know all the history of some of your cars, but are we talking pads/pads or pads/shoes?

Are there any uprated choices for shoes?

[jbcollier]

I'm discussing front brakes.

[Bainford]

Interesting comments all around, John. I'm surprised the EBC pads gave up in the manner they did, being a high performance pad. I'm guessing the mountain pass was particularly punishing. I have just bought a new set of Green Stuff pads (not yet fitted) to replace what I am fairly sure are the original, factory fitted pads. No doubt the new EBC pads will be a significant improvement over those.

I'm also curious about the Hawk pads. Not familiar with that brand, but your experience is interesting, indeed. Looking forward to feedback on the Mintex pads. Enjoy the ride.

[Pfreen]

I have gone through cheapy pads, greenstuff and now I have Mintex 1144 pads.
I din't remember exactly the problems with generic cheapy pads.
I then fitted the greenstuff pads.
The braking was very abrupt and not very controllable.  They bit hard.  My Europa locks the front way before the rear, so they were too grippy for me.

I then fitted the Mintex 1144 pads.  They are not grippy and are very controllable.  They also improved the front rear balance, although not perfect.  I have not experienced brake fade since i haven't raced the car and I live in flat Florida.

The only issue I have is brake dust and they squeak some.

So, my experience recommends Mintex 1144 pads.

I have not tried different rear brake lining materials, but I would like to try something some day.

[Kendo]

Mintex makes brake shoes, too. (Unlike Hawk)

[cazman]

Does anyone know of a seller in the States that sells Mintex? They all seem to be in the UK.

[Pfreen]

I bought mine through ebay in the uk.

[EuropaTC]

Interesting comments all around, John. I'm surprised the EBC pads gave up in the manner they did, being a high performance pad.

Hi Bainford (and other folks !)

The EBC Greenstuff made it's name over here as having a good initial bite from cold and at one time was popular with folks who decided to remove the servo assistance. I went that route and yep, they made initial braking very easy. Unlike John, I never had brake fade but even when we lived in Yorkshire we didn't have mountain passes so they worked pretty well for me then. The biggest "problem" was brake dust.

EBC make several other grades with different operating temperatures and generally call them by colour ranges - Red, Yellow, etc. They do a PDF catalogue, unfortunately too big to attach here, but my copy has not only their OEM equivalents but also "upgrade quailty", unusual for a mainstream supplier ? They also did brake shoes as well in their listings. (not checked for our cars, I don't have rear drums).  You can still download them but I don't know if the ones now are as detailed as my old one or if you can still get individual data sheets for the specific materials showing temperature curves/friction coefficients, etc.

https://ebcbrakes.com/catalogues/

Having said all that, I also have Mintex 1144's in the front but I do still have EBC on the rear. 

Brian

[Pfreen]

If ebc has brake shoes for a Tcs (1.5"), I would sure be interested.  However, I did not find anything in their website.
Do you have a part number?

[Bainford]

Many thanks, Brian, for the feedback and the link. Very useful stuff. I'll download a catalogue and do a little bedtime reading. Cheers.

[cazman]

I thought that I would keep this thread going and report on my brake pad/shoe experience, as many different makes have been discussed here. I do use my my car for track days, so I was looking for something that would hold up at the track and be ok for the street. At the time I was getting parts from Banks, so I just asked them to send what they thought was appropriate for my situation. They sent the Mintex F4r pads for the front and their "competition" shoes for the rear (took awhile, as they are custom lined). At first, I was going to send them back because they seemed too much for the street (Mintex does not recommend the F series pads for street), but I was in a hurry to get on the road so I put them on. In addition, I was getting frustrated with the performance of my Girling servos so they came off. I have a .75 diameter rod in my master cylinder.

I have been to three track days and two trips through the Adirondack Mountains and I am very satisfied. On the track, they are completely predictable with consistent stopping performance and no fade (as of yet). On the street they are fine from cold, do not squeal, and do not have much dust. I was surprised with the cold performance, but I do not feel much difference between cold and hot. I think if I was to use them for street only I might want more initial bite, but I do not like too much initial bite for the track.

I purchased an adjustable brake proportioning valve just in case I needed it when I took out the servos, but I find the balance perfect without it. If I stand on the brakes to lock up, the fronts lock up just before the rear and that is fine for me.

I would not mind a tandem .70 master cylinder rod though.