Author Topic: hello again!  (Read 3218 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline andy harwood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Sep 2012
  • Location: eden, nc usa
  • Posts: 532
hello again!
« on: Tuesday,November 12, 2013, 04:49:34 AM »
Well, after a lot of ups and downs, general changes that life tends to throw when you least expect it, I'm back with some Europa questions.
After attempting (half heartedly) to sell my TCS, not getting any serious takers, then getting a medical diagnosis I could have lived without, decided to keep car for a retirement hobby.
Things I want to do are:
1. rear disk bakes, documented procedure, so shouldn't be impossible.
2. upgrade rear axles. I know there are different approaches to this. one was advertised on ebay, about $1400 for everything I think. Don't see them on ebay anymore. Anyone know who produced them?
I seem to remember someone using VW axles and CV joints for a conversion too - anyone have opinions on this?
I think I read about it on the YH group. It has since changed format and I'm having a hard time looking around on it.
thanks
andyh

Offline Bainford

  • Twin Cam 3682R
  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jul 2012
  • Location: Nova Scotia
  • Posts: 1,711
Re: hello again!
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday,November 12, 2013, 08:45:10 AM »
Hi Andy. Brian (EuropaTC) just did a rear disc conversion on his Europa. He posted about it in the Technical section of the forum.
The Twin Cam plays the symphony whilst my right foot conducts the orchestra. At 3800 rpm the Mad Pipe Organ joins in.

Trevor

Offline cal44

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Jun 2012
  • Location: Encinitas, Ca
  • Posts: 687
Re: hello again!
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday,November 13, 2013, 03:25:04 PM »
Andy,
ifin' it were me concerning the axles.  I would go with something from Banks or, if RD sells something.  I prefer items that are already engineered and ready to bolt right in.  Guess I'm lazy.

mike
"Be Polite, Be Professional, But have a plan to kill everyone you meet"
General "mad dog" James Mattis
United States Marines

Offline andy harwood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Sep 2012
  • Location: eden, nc usa
  • Posts: 532
Re: hello again!
« Reply #3 on: Thursday,November 14, 2013, 04:09:34 AM »
Thanks for the replies ya'll.
I had a look at Brian's rear disk conversion, looks good. in looking around the net seems some have used Honda disks & Miata calipers, with the same (it seems) installation issues. this will probably be the route I take, since parts are easy.
The rear axle conversion on ebay was done by a Lotus shop - seems it was located maybe in Chicago.
They had hardened spacers listed also.
The conversion appeared to be rather more robust than stock, using a larger diameter axle nut and keyways. pricey though - about $1400, if I remember correctly.
if anyone remembers the seller, I'd appreciate a lead.
andyh

Offline Bainford

  • Twin Cam 3682R
  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jul 2012
  • Location: Nova Scotia
  • Posts: 1,711
Re: hello again!
« Reply #4 on: Thursday,November 14, 2013, 06:03:49 AM »
I think I know the fellow you're talking about, but unfortunately I don't recall his name. If I do I'll be sure to post it. His solution required one to donate their outer axle end so he could salvage the u-joint yoke (provided the yoke was in servicable condition). He then welded this to his new axle end which, instead of a spline, transferred torque to the hub via a fitted shaft with four keys/keyways. The axel ends and hub were apparently made of improved materials and improved design that didn't suffer the Europa axle breakage syndrome.

It seemed like a robust solution, and I have considered it myself. I was, however, reluctant to give up two perfectly good axle yokes for this endeavour. I was also somewhat concerned about the potential lack of engineering involved. In this world of over engineered everything, and the resultant cost increases of it all, I can be satisfied with a bit of diligent home grown, eyeball engineering. However, the method of transferring torque with four keys is quite unorthodox. Two keys placed 90 deg apart is generally sufficient in moderate to high load applications, and given the low weight of the Europa should be suitable for this application. The four keys was a small warning sign to me regarding the potential lack of engineering knowledge behind this solution, but my concerns may be completely unwarranted. For all intents and purposes it does appear to be a workable solution. I'm certainly interested in hearing from anyone who has fitted these parts to their car.
The Twin Cam plays the symphony whilst my right foot conducts the orchestra. At 3800 rpm the Mad Pipe Organ joins in.

Trevor

Offline EuropaTC

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jun 2012
  • Location: Lincolnshire, UK
  • Posts: 3,129
    • LotusLand
Re: hello again!
« Reply #5 on: Thursday,November 14, 2013, 09:01:48 AM »
(part quote)
The four keys was a small warning sign to me regarding the potential lack of engineering knowledge behind this solution, but my concerns may be completely unwarranted.

A good point, when I first read "4 keys" I also did a double take, more so when you consider that the Elan uses a tapered rear shaft with a single keyway.   It made me think that the axle shaft is a loose parallel sliding fit in the hub and the 4 keys are used to locate it centrally as well as take the drive loads.

Which could easily be complete rubbish, but I still wonder "4 keys ?"  Why not just a splined shaft to take the OEM hub, or if a new hub/axle is desirable then why not a single key with tapered shaft which centralises and locks up very easily ?

Brian

ps - as the UJ's come from the Triumph range, maybe a propshaft from a scrap car would give the required yokes ?  It seems a bit drastic to scrap a part that might be usable for another Lotus owner.

Offline andy harwood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Sep 2012
  • Location: eden, nc usa
  • Posts: 532
Re: hello again!
« Reply #6 on: Thursday,November 14, 2013, 01:17:34 PM »
I hadn't thought about the 4 key way/keys as being a design shortcoming. food for thought.
at the $1400. price plus sending in usable stub axles this will be a serious rethink on my part. Probably better to keep my old axle parts, just in case, and use the $$ on other areas.
at 75K on the original engine, although still running ok, this maybe a better direction to put the $$.
Thanks for the advice guys.
andyh

Offline Bainford

  • Twin Cam 3682R
  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jul 2012
  • Location: Nova Scotia
  • Posts: 1,711
Re: hello again!
« Reply #7 on: Friday,November 15, 2013, 06:57:02 AM »
I hadn't thought about the 4 key way/keys as being a design shortcoming. food for thought.
The four keys may not be a design shortcoming as such, just very unusual from an engineering point of view. As Brian asks, Why four keys? Is it compensation for a design shortcoming or just someone over thinking the situation? Four keys should not be necessary, and it makes me wonder if other aspects of the redesigned hub are poorly thought out. Though highly unusual, the four keys in and of themselves can work. The design did seem robust, and I had emailed the guy through ebay asking about a weight increase with this new design. There is an increase, though I forget now how much it is.

As Brian points out, finding yokes from a more common application, such as from the Triumph range, might provide a solution for someone who did not want to sacrifice a perfectly good set of hard to find Europa stub axles. I think I would go this way if I were to opt for this solution.

PLEASE NOTE: I would like to state that my comments on this hub/axle kit are purely my opinions and personal concerns. Not having held the parts in my hand, and not having any personal experience with them, I don't want to dump all over what may actually be a perfectly good and servicable design. Someone has gone to a lot of work to design this thing and I dont want to be seen as destroying that effort, especially if this guy is a valued member of the Europa community. The internet is rife with half cocked experts talking about things they have no real knowledge of, and I try avoid falling into this trap. I do have knowledge of industrial power transmission equipment and it is from this knowledge that I draw my concerns.

Cheers
The Twin Cam plays the symphony whilst my right foot conducts the orchestra. At 3800 rpm the Mad Pipe Organ joins in.

Trevor

Offline andy harwood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Sep 2012
  • Location: eden, nc usa
  • Posts: 532
Re: hello again!
« Reply #8 on: Friday,November 15, 2013, 07:56:07 AM »
maybe I phrased shortcoming incorrectly in my reply. I do realize there are usually more than 1 solution to a given problem.
Seems that conversion used a 7/8 axle nut compared to the 5/8 (?) original. Most definitely a more robust design,  by someone with a lot of Europa experience.
Something that I need - probably not, just like the rear disks.
As I'm rather new to Lotus, I enjoy reading everyone's opinions.
Mostly, as I'm sitting here waiting on being able to get out and do something, I was thinking of things to upgrade my car with.
If you've read my posts on this board, you know I'm rather haphazard in my thoughts, and direction.
The last couple of days I seem to have a more accurate direction of what I'm going to attempt on the Europa. More as I work out details.
really, thanks for all of your replies!
andyh


 

Offline HealeyBN7

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Joined: Sep 2013
  • Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
  • Posts: 103
Re: hello again!
« Reply #9 on: Sunday,November 17, 2013, 08:19:27 AM »
The contact you are looking for is Charles Hsu.   I can't find his number or email address.  Perhaps Google can help.  I originally found him through the Golden Gate Lotus club page.

He was working with a local machine shop (that would take small jobs) and had a few axle sets produced for the Elan and Europa.  I must have an earlier variety as I have three key slots.   You can see a photo here (perhaps):  http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lotuseuropa/photos/albums/517570500/lightbox/1256863275

I was very pleased with the quality of the parts.  Fitment is excellent and it is an area that I don't worry about anymore.  In the last year he did send me a pair of new flanged nuts and asked that I replace the originals.  Thought that was just splendid.

Dean (S2/Zetec)

Offline andy harwood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Sep 2012
  • Location: eden, nc usa
  • Posts: 532
Re: hello again!
« Reply #10 on: Sunday,November 17, 2013, 12:37:40 PM »
Dean,
Thanks for the information. I'll give this a search.
Just yesterday I've been gleaning info off the KB about Zetec conversions, ran across quite a few of your posts. Thanks for sharing the information.
Just looked at your yahoo photos, beautiful car, and excellent work!
andyh