Author Topic: Choosing the correct 40 DOCE Carbs  (Read 1196 times)

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Offline dakazman

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Choosing the correct 40 DOCE Carbs
« on: Thursday,May 28, 2020, 11:19:53 AM »
   I’m searching for a set of Weber 40 DOCE carbs for a 843 crossflow . I noticed on eBay a few other choices a carby, Weber’s for Audi‘s and vw’s , just Weber’s listings . How do you choose the correct carbs?  I also noticed you need the correct linkage setup , so once again , how do you choose?
Dakazman

Offline dakazman

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Re: Choosing the correct 40 DOCE Carbs
« Reply #1 on: Thursday,May 28, 2020, 11:36:06 AM »
  Here is my starting points
Introduction

A very popular upgrade for a wide range of engines is the fitment of twin Weber DCOE carburetors (Figure). There exists a great deal of mystique and confusion with regard to setting up Weber DCOE carburetors, and in particular the correct starting point for jetting. However, Weber DCOE carburetors are not as complicated as many fear, and while fine-tuning is best performed using a rolling road dynamometer (chassis dyno) an excellent first guess can be obtained based upon the engine size and power band desired. The following provides the calculations that are required to achieve an excellent initial set-up, irrespective of the application.

The Weber 40 DCOE sidedraught carburetor.
Weber is an Italian company producing carburetors, currently owned by Magneti Marelli Powertrain, in turn part of the Fiat Group. The company was established as Fabbrica Italiana Carburatori Weber in 1923 by Edoardo Weber (1889–1945). Weber carburetors were fitted to standard production cars and factory racing applications on automotive marques such as Abarth, Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, BMW, Caterham, Ferrari, Fiat, Ford, Lamborghini, Lancia, Lotus, Maserati, Porsche, Renault, Triumph and VW. Weber carburetors were produced in Bologna, Italy up until around 1990 when production was transferred to Madrid, Spain, where they continue to be produced today.
The prefix number on the DCOE, e.g., 40 DCOE, is the diameter of the throttle plate (the throttle bore) in mm; DC means doppio corpo (double throat); O means orizzontale (horizontal); E means it is a die cast carburetor; and the number or number and letter suffix is the variation type (e.g., 40 DCOE151). An example of a 40 DCOE is shown in Figure, while a parts diagram is shown in Figure with the parts description given in Table.

A parts diagram for a Weber 45 DCOE carburetors. The number key for selected parts is given in Table.
Selected parts key to Figure.
Part   Number in Figure
Filter   3
Jet inspection cover   4
Needle valve   8
Float   9
Emulsion tube holder   10
Air corrector jet   11
Idle jet holder   12
Emulsion tube   13
Main jet   15
Idle jet   16
Auxiliary venturi   17
Air horn   18
Main venturi   22
Air bypass screw   26
Throttle plate   33
Idle mixture screw   56
Pump jet   57
Starter air jet   74
Determination of the correct venturi size

The most common issue with badly tuned Weber DCOE series carburetors is the choice of the correct carburetor. It is commonly (and incorrectly) assumed that 45s will give more power than 40s because of the larger carburetor barrel. However, it is not the barrel size (i.e., 40 or 45) that determines the airflow and therefore potential horsepower, it is the size of the main venturi or choke (22 in Figure and Figure). Selection of the correct main venturi size is the first step prior to selecting the carburetor. The size of the venturi is embossed on the inside lip (see Figure).

A pair of DCOE venturis/chokes.
The purpose of the main venturi is to increase the vacuum acting on the main jet (15 in Figure) in order to draw in and atomize the fuel mixture in the most effective manner. The smaller the main venturi, the more effective this action is, but a smaller venturi will inhibit flow. A large venturi may give more power right at the top end of the power band, but will give this at the expense of tractability at lower engine speeds (rpm). Race cars will benefit from this latter compromise, but on a road car drivability is much more important.
Figure shows a chart that allows for the correct selection of main venturi size for engines given the engines capacity and the rpm at which it is expected to achieve peak power. The rpm value primarily depends on the choice of cam; however, it is necessary to ensure that the rest of the engine is built to meet the needs of that engine speed. For example, the use of double springs on a pushrod engine or solid (rather than pneumatic) lifters in an overhead cam engine.

Chart showing main venturi sizes for various engine sizes and peak rpm ranges. The red line is for a Formula Vauxhall Lotus, while the blue line is for a Ford crossflow powered Lotus Seven S3.
Calculation of the carburetor barrel size

Once the correct venturi size has been determined from Figure it is a simple matter to determine which carburetor is required. The ideal barrel size that will accommodate the venturi size selected is calculated according to [link]. Table shows a list of the main venturi size available for common DCOE series carburetors.
 
The main venturi size available for common DCOE series carburetors.
DCOE carburetor   Available venturi sizes (mm)
40   24 - 36
42   24 - 34
45   28 - 40
48   40 - 42
48/50SP   42 - 46
55SP   46 - 48
Example 1: Using Figure a 2000 cc Vauxhall/Opel engine giving its maximum power at 7000 rpm will require a venturi size of 38 mm, and therefore an ideal barrel size of 47.5 mm (i.e., 38 x 1.25). For this application 45 DCOE is the solution, since 38 mm chokes are not available for 40s or even larger carburetors (see Table).
What venturi size will a 1600 cc Ford crossflow engine require if its maximum power is delivered at 6500 rpm?

Main jet and air corrector size selection

Once the choice of venturi is made, the appropriate sizes of the main jet and air corrector can be made. The main jet (Figure) and air corrector (Figure) are positioned either end of the emulsion tube (Figure), which is located beneath the jet inspection cover (4 in Figure). Both main jets and air correctors are sized in increments of 5, and the sizes are embossed on the outside of both (e.g., Figure).

A pair of main jets.

A pair of air correctors.

Diagram of the main jet assembly for Weber DCOE carburetors.
The main jet has an effect over the whole rev range, whereas changing the air correction jet has more effect at higher revs. Increasing the size of the main jet will enrich the fuel mixture and visa versa. In contrast, increasing the size of the air correction jet will lean out the mixture. A summary of the results of changes in the main and air correction jets is given in Figure.

The relationship between jet size and fuel mixture.
The formula for the calculation of main jet size when the main venturi size is known is Equation. This will give a 'safe' starting point for the main jet size. The air corrector jet initial settings should be about 50 higher than the main jet, Equation.
 
 
Using the results from Example for the 2000 cc Vauxhall/Opel engine, a venturi size of 38 mm will calculate a main jet size of 152. Since main jets are sized in increments of 5, so a main jet of 150 would be suitable, while the appropriate air corrector would be 200. However, a main jet of 155 and air corrector of 205 could also be tried.
What main jet and air corrector sizes will be needed for Ford 1600 cc crossflow engine with a venturi size of 30 mm? What if the venturi was increased to 32 mm?

Emulsion tube selection

The emulsion tube (Figure and Figure) holds the main jet and the air corrector, and is located (13 in Figure) beneath the jet inspection cover (4 in Figure). The size of the emulsion tube is defined by the cylinder capacity. Table shows suggested emulsion tube types for a given single cylinder capacity.

An emulsion tube for a DCOE carburetor. The main jet fits into the bottom while the air corrector fits in the top.
Suggested emulsion tube type for a given single cylinder capacity.
Cylinder capacity (cc)   Suggested emulsion tube
250 – 325   F11
275 – 400   F15
350 – 475   F9, F16
450 – 575   F2
For a 2000 cc Vauxhall/Opel engine each cylinder capacity is 500 cc and a F2 emulsion tube would be appropriate. However, a 2000 cc engine in just on the cusp of change for emulsion tube type between F16 and F2, if you already have F16 tubes, use them it is not worth the expense of change, they will just cause the main circuit to start marginally earlier.
What emulsion tube would be used for a 1600 cc Ford crossflow engine?

Idle Jet selection

Idle jets (Figure and Figure) cause a lot of confusion; although their name suggests that they govern the idle mixture, this is not true. The idle mixture is actually metered by the idle volume screws (56 in Figure) mounted on top of each barrel. The function of the idle jet is to control the progression between closed throttle and the main jet circuit. As such it is important to smooth progression between closed throttle and acceleration and for part throttle driving. If this circuit is too weak then the engine will stutter or nosedive when opening the throttle, too rich and the engine will hunt and surge especially when hot.

An example of an idle jet for a DCOE carburetor.

Diagram of idle jet assembly for a Weber DCOE carburetor.
Idle jets have two numbers; the first is the size of the fuel orifice (Figure), while the second ‘f’ number, is the air bleed (also known as the air drilling, see Figure). As with the emulsion tube, the idle jet is chosen based upon the cylinder volume. [link] shows the approximate idle jet sizes for given engine sizes; this assumes one carburetor barrel per inlet port, i.e., two DCOEs per 4 cylinder engine.
The idle jet sizes appropriate for a given engine size.
Engine size (cc)   Idle jet size
1600   40/45
1800   45/50
2000   50/55
2100   55/60
For each size of idle jet there are a range of air bleed alternatives available. The ones in normal use are F2, F8, F9 and F6. Generally speaking start your selection with an F9 air bleed. A full list of the various ‘f’ numbers as it relates the rich to lean running is shown in Figure.

The most commonly used air size designations, running from weak to rich. Those in most normal use are shown in bold.
Setting the idle and slow running

Rough running at idle is normally due to the idle mixture and balance settings between multiple carburetors being incorrect. Before adjusting the carburetors it is important to make sure that the following have been checked:
The engine is at normal operating temperature.
The throttle return spring/mechanism is working properly.
The engine has sufficient advance at the idle speed (between 12 and 16°). As a starting point the idle speed for a modified engine on Webers is between 900 and 1100 rpm.
An accurate rev counter is used.
There are no air leaks or electrical faults.
The following represents a step-wise approach to the correct setting of the idle. Reference to Figure and Figure for the position of the appropriate screw positions.

Diagram of Weber DCO type carburetor.
If the carburetors are being fitted for the first time, screw all of the idle mixture adjustment screws (Figure and 56 in Figure) fully in and then out 2.5 turns.
Start the engine and let it reach normal operating temperature. This may mean adjusting the idle speed as the engine warms up. Set the idle as near as you can to 900 rpm.
Spitting back through the back of the carburetor normally indicates that the mixture is too weak, or the timing is hopelessly retarded. If this happens when the engine is warm and you know that the timing is OK, then the mixture will need trimming richer on that cylinder.
Using an airflow meter or carburetor synchronizer (Figure) adjust the balance mechanism between the carburetors such that the flow of air is the same for each carburetor. If the rearmost carburetor (i.e., cylinders 3 and 4) is drawing less air than the front (i.e., cylinders 1 and 2), turn the balance screw in a clockwise direction to correct this. If it is drawing more air, then turn the balance screw anti-clockwise. If the idle speed varies, adjust it back to 900 rpm, to decrease idle speed screw in an anti-clockwise direction, to increase, screw in a clockwise direction.
Once the carburetors have the same airflow, turn the idle mixture screw (Figure and 56 in Figure) for the number 1 cylinder anti-clockwise (which will make it richer) in small increments (a quarter of a turn is sufficient). Allow 5 - 10 seconds for the engine to settle after each adjustment. Note whether engine speed increases or decreases. If it increases continue turning in that direction and checking for engine speed, then the moment that engine speed starts to fall, back off a quarter of a turn. If during this process the engine speed goes well over 1000 rpm, then trim it down using the idle speed screw, and re-adjust the idle mixture screw. If on the first turn, the engine speed decreases then turn the mixture screw clockwise (which will make it weaker) in small increments, again if engine speed continues to rise, continue in that direction, then the moment it starts to fall, back off a quarter a turn. The mixture is correct when a quarter of a turn in either direction causes the engine speed to fall. If that barrel is spitting back then the mixture is too weak, so start turning in an anti-clockwise direction to richen.
Repeat this process for the idle mixture screws for each cylinder on each carburetor.
After all the mixture screws have been set, the idle should be fairly even with no discernible 'rocking' of the engine, if the engine is pulsing, spitting or hunting then the mixture screws will need further adjustment. If the engine is rocking or shaking then the balance is out, so revisit with the airflow meter/carburetor synchronizer.

A typical carburetor synchronizer tool/air flow meter.
Bibliography

P. Braden, Weber Carburetors, Penguin Putnam (1988).
D. Hammill, How to Build and Power Tune Weber and Dellorto DCOE and DHLA Carburettors, Veloce Publishing (2006).
A. K. Legg, Weber Carburettor Manual, Haynes Manuals (1996).
J. Passini, Weber Carburettors Tuning Tips and Techniques, Brooklands Books (2008).
Resources

Carbs Unlimited, Inc., 727 22nd St NE, Auburn WA 98002, www.carburetion.com.
Pegasus Auto Racing Supplies, Inc., 2475 S 179th Street, New Berlin WI 53146, www.pegasusautoracing.com.
Webcon UK Ltd., Dolphin Road, Sunbury, Middlesex TW16 7HE, www.webcon.co.uk.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Choosing the correct 40 DOCE Carbs
« Reply #2 on: Thursday,May 28, 2020, 12:34:58 PM »
What sort of 843 are you building?  Compression ration, valve sizes, cam grind, etc?

The factory Weber equipped crossflows all came with 45s/large valves/sport cams or wilder/10.25:1 or higher.  Perhaps not the smoothest around town.  I went with Dell 40s and can provide a baseline for those again with similar hp engine specs.  I also have the factory specs for Weber 45s.  So, you can find the recommended 45DCOE carb but picking the best 40DCOE would require a bit of research.  It's the progression circuit drillings that is the primary difference.  More is not always better.  I really, really recommend:

How to Build and Power Tune Weber and Dellorto DCOE, DCO/SP, DHLA Carburettors

You can find it on Amazon.  Let me know if you want the factory specs for the 45s.

Offline BDA

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Re: Choosing the correct 40 DOCE Carbs
« Reply #3 on: Thursday,May 28, 2020, 02:04:11 PM »
I would recommend a new Spanish made Weber 40 DCOE 151 or 45 DCOE 152 (they are no longer made in Italy). From what I understand, they are made from the same tooling as the older Italian carbs but the new ones have air bleeds on each barrel so you can not only balance between carbs but between throats on a carb. JB mentioned progression holes and I believe the newer carbs are better in that regard too.

Offline dakazman

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Re: Choosing the correct 40 DOCE Carbs
« Reply #4 on: Thursday,May 28, 2020, 05:16:17 PM »
    John,  All good questions and exactly the questions I knew I need to find the answers to. I also now need to find out what the difference is with a 45 . is the throat 45mm   
Going by specs for a 16 or 17 / fuego  , compression ratio is 9.6:1  , My intake valves are 40 exhaust 35 . The valves and seats are in perfect shape so I was just going to leave it for now.
    The cam came from Renault16shop and I’m in the process to get it’s specs measured in the engine. Which should be intake 24/68 and exhaust 68/24.  I planned on a regrind and have the specs for 3 different grinds.
     I first wanted to see if it fit in frame with the front pulley installed. Gearbox and shifting operational.
 It came with a Single DGV manifold and no distributor. I picked up a distributor and the Weber intake manifolds. I may be premature about the Weber carbs but enjoy the reading. Sticker shock on prices range from $600 to 1100.
  BDA , I have seen those also . That’s why I’m asking.
Dakazman


Offline jbcollier

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Re: Choosing the correct 40 DOCE Carbs
« Reply #5 on: Thursday,May 28, 2020, 07:39:27 PM »
With the chokes (veturii) in, the throat of the exit is 45mm.

A pair of side drafts doesn't make much sense with the small valve and port head.  Personally I'd stick with the downdraft in that case.  Nice torquey engine in the 85 to 100 hp range.

Addition: Small port and valve heads can be brought up to large valve/port specs.

« Last Edit: Thursday,May 28, 2020, 07:41:14 PM by jbcollier »

Offline dakazman

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Re: Choosing the correct 40 DOCE Carbs
« Reply #6 on: Friday,May 29, 2020, 05:10:25 AM »
   Thanks JB , that makes sense.  Cutting up and modifying a good clean head doesn’t make much sense at this time.
I’ll run the downdraft , which then can be transferred to the wedge motor. I’ll also be looking for another crossflow head that needs work in the mean time . I’ll post more information about the engine ASAP.
 I’ll concentrate on adding the smallest A/C compressor and mounting.
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Offline dakazman

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Re: Choosing the correct 40 DOCE Carbs
« Reply #7 on: Friday,May 29, 2020, 12:46:31 PM »
  I put a degree wheel and a dial indicator on the cam I received from Renault16 , I may be of a few degrees here is my results.
   First I based it on the head sequence IEIEIEIE .
  EO @ 86 BBDC
  EC @ 86 BTDC
 
  IO@ 24 BTDC
  IC@ 28 BBDC

  I also ran a search of the head Part Number of 7700597415 and it pulls up as an R17.
  A picture of my engine pate pic included.  The head also had a lot of porting done after I cleaned The carbon residue off.

 After installing I noticed the cam is missing the fuel pump lobe in the proximity of the cover yet it is closer to the timing gear. I thought the worse until I pulled out the cam and hat was in there same thing! I did remember removing a fuel pump and a Lol go thru the pics of when I received them.

Dakazman


Offline dakazman

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Re: Choosing the correct 40 DOCE Carbs
« Reply #8 on: Friday,May 29, 2020, 04:46:26 PM »
  Pulled out my downdraft manifold and flushed head learned another thing about these hemi heads is that the intake manifold center inlets are water cooled!  The Weber intakes are not , might it be since they are split they don’t crack as much as a the 4 cylinder Intake?
Dakazman

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Choosing the correct 40 DOCE Carbs
« Reply #9 on: Friday,May 29, 2020, 06:16:07 PM »
It's to make a hot spot in the manifold to aid in fuel vaporization, especially as the engine warms up.