Author Topic: Brake boosters?  (Read 1608 times)

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Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Brake boosters?
« Reply #15 on: Monday,October 07, 2019, 12:26:09 AM »
What is the story with brake boosters? I see people remove them and put in a different master cylinder. Were they needed on a car as light as an Europa?
I can understand why you're asking that one, it must be one of the most commonly talked about brake mods to our cars (and the period Elans as well).   And it gets more confusing if you read up and find that for the dual circuit cars boosters were fitted as standard but for single circuit cars they were originally an optional extra. So Lotus obviously didn't think they were essential - but more later on that optional choice.   It's even more confusing when you look at the 90's Elise S1, fractionally heavier yet came without servo assistance but has short pedal travel, low pedal pressure and brakes like nothing else.

So do you need one (or two ! ) servo/booster for good brakes ?  Nope, but there are obvious plus and minus boxes and you'll need to decide if those boxes are important to you.

Probably the most notable are pedal pressure and travel. Let's talk about travel and an extra 1/2" or 3/4"  of travel might not sound much but the first time you experience that extra distance you'll be thinking you aren't going to stop.  But if you swap the m/cyl from say 1" to 0.7" then to displace the fluid needed you're going to get more travel. You can reduce this by re-drilling the actuating rod pivot on the brake pedal & trading pedal pressure for reduced travel, but that's a very limited option due to the space we have to play with.  Conclusion - if you stay with standard disc/drums/pads and want the same pedal pressure as a boosted car, you'll need a smaller m/cyl & get more pedal travel.

Pedal pressure; the servo/booster wasn't a particularly high ratio (1.9:1, 2:1 ?) but clearly it made a difference to the braking effort so if you take it off and do nothing else, you'll be pressing harder.  And as with extended travel, you might think the brakes are suddenly lousy.  Again there are ways to get around this and the simplest is fitting higher friction pad materials, EBC Greenstuff, Mintex, etc. Fitting larger discs or different calipers will also get you back to the lighter pedal of an assisted car, but that's obviously a more complex option.   

My personal take is that you can run any brake system, single/dual circuit, assisted or non-assisted and you'll be fine. But the trick is to ensure your choice is balanced and designed to run as such so you'll probably end up making more than one alteration if you want to achieve the braking feel of the previous design.

Brian

Offline surfguitar58

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Re: Brake boosters?
« Reply #16 on: Monday,October 07, 2019, 05:59:43 AM »
I have been wrestling with this question since I bought my car 2 years ago. My PO deleted the boosters but left the original dual circuit MC. My first reaction driving the car was AAAAAHHHH! No Brakes! But, that was only in comparison to my late model BMW and Volvo family cars. I looked into the Spitfire NC substitute, and I got fairly far along on an experiment to sleeve to OEM master cylinder and machined new pistons to preserve the stepped ratio for the front and rear brakes. My latest thought is to simply drill a new clevis hole in the brake pedal closer to the fulcrum and raise the whole pedal assembly slightly to keep the geometry in line with the MC.

So, what did I end up doing? Nothing, that's what. I am completely used to having to apply authoritative pressure to the brakes, and I can lock them up if needed. The pedal throw is wonderfully short and responsive, I am maintaining the front/rear stepped MC piston ratio, I did not have to fab new brake lines and I get "originality points" for having the OEM master cylinder. YMMV

Tom
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Offline TurboFource

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Re: Brake boosters?
« Reply #17 on: Monday,October 07, 2019, 06:02:48 AM »
Thanks for the replies!
The more I do the more I find I need to do....remember your ABC’s …anything but chinesium!

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Brake boosters?
« Reply #18 on: Monday,October 07, 2019, 06:27:03 AM »
I find the extra pedal travel provides wonderful feel and makes modulation very easy.

Greenstuff pads fade on (very) long downhills -- was otherwise delighted.  Trying Mintex 1144s but no long trips till next year as winter is coming.

Offline Grumblebuns

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Re: Brake boosters?
« Reply #19 on: Monday,October 07, 2019, 06:49:05 AM »
I have been wrestling with this question since I bought my car 2 years ago. My PO deleted the boosters but left the original dual circuit MC. My first reaction driving the car was AAAAAHHHH! No Brakes! But, that was only in comparison to my late model BMW and Volvo family cars. I looked into the Spitfire NC substitute, and I got fairly far along on an experiment to sleeve to OEM master cylinder and machined new pistons to preserve the stepped ratio for the front and rear brakes. My latest thought is to simply drill a new clevis hole in the brake pedal closer to the fulcrum and raise the whole pedal assembly slightly to keep the geometry in line with the MC.

So, what did I end up doing? Nothing, that's what. I am completely used to having to apply authoritative pressure to the brakes, and I can lock them up if needed. The pedal throw is wonderfully short and responsive, I am maintaining the front/rear stepped MC piston ratio, I did not have to fab new brake lines and I get "originality points" for having the OEM master cylinder. YMMV

Tom

Tom, what pads are you using? Driving my TCS with the failed boosters, I could never apply enough pedal pressure to lock the brakes, much less stop in a reasonable distance. Felt like braking with blocks of wood and afraid of snapping the brake pedal.

 

Offline surfguitar58

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Re: Brake boosters?
« Reply #20 on: Monday,October 07, 2019, 07:03:30 AM »


Tom, what pads are you using? Driving my TCS with the failed boosters, I could never apply enough pedal pressure to lock the brakes, much less stop in a reasonable distance. Felt like braking with blocks of wood and afraid of snapping the brake pedal.

 

When I first bought the car I had a local custom shop go over the car (the shop owner is a former JPS owner). They replaced all the brake pads but I'm not sure what they used. Being a high performance shop I wouldn't be surprised if they used Greenstuff or something like it. I'll ask next time I see the shop owner.
Tom
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Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Offline Bart

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Re: Brake boosters?
« Reply #21 on: Tuesday,October 08, 2019, 12:26:50 PM »
Hi,

I am doing the same thing on my 73 TCS, A Tilton 74 3/4" with no booster or proportioning valve,  its a very simple set up and super easy to run the brake lines to disks all round. Like you, I will not know how this will perform until late next year, but nothing is irreversible if it doesn't work out as I hope.


Offline tedtaylor

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Re: Brake boosters?
« Reply #22 on: Tuesday,October 08, 2019, 03:41:19 PM »
if you want to maintain originality - keep the boosters.
if you want to modify/improve or don't care about originality, then your option to remove boosters.

years ago, they were easily and readily rebuilt.    in past years, the rebuild kits became unavailable here in the states, thus contributing to their demise.   Recently, the rebuild kits are readily available in England and can be shipped to USA.   There are a couple rebuilders out there (Apple hydraulics, White Post, etc.) that resleeve and rebuild them.
So since they can now be easily rebuilt like any other part or system on the car, why not keep originality and keep them???
TED
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Offline Certified Lotus

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Re: Brake boosters?
« Reply #23 on: Tuesday,October 08, 2019, 03:57:15 PM »
Reduce weight. Colin would have eliminated them if he could have.

Offline literarymadness

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Re: Brake boosters?
« Reply #24 on: Tuesday,October 08, 2019, 06:27:57 PM »
Certified: Do you know the weight of your car? The answer would be helpful.

Offline Fotog

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Re: Brake boosters?
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday,October 08, 2019, 06:28:59 PM »
Hi,

I am doing the same thing on my 73 TCS, A Tilton 74 3/4" with no booster or proportioning valve,  its a very simple set up and super easy to run the brake lines to disks all round. Like you, I will not know how this will perform until late next year, but nothing is irreversible if it doesn't work out as I hope.

My '73 TC is missing its boosters, but has the original master cylinder.  I was thinking about a smaller one, and in reading here I kind of settled upon the Spitfire MC.  But now I'm curious about these Tilton MC's.  I look at their website and I don't see anything about a dual-circuit cylinder.  Are you planning on using 2 of them?

Offline Certified Lotus

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Re: Brake boosters?
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday,October 08, 2019, 07:14:07 PM »
Certified: Do you know the weight of your car? The answer would be helpful.

No idea. The local drive on scale near my house is located down a dirty road that has all kinds debris scattered about from big dump trucks hauling stuff. No way am I driving down that road in the Lotus.

I’ll need to find another or wait until the next SCCA track event at NJMP and ask nicely for the scrutineers to weigh me in.