Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Richard48Y on Thursday,December 05, 2024, 07:13:07 PM
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I thought I had saved the link to them on my iMAC, but cannot locate it.
Tried search here too, no luck.
As I recall it was not that long ago the post was made.
I now have two sets of doors to fix with one being a bit urgent.
Help please.
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I don’t remember the thread. Are you talking about microspheres for making fiberglass filler?
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No, a part called a "Ugiball"?
Something like that.
Getting nowhere with my searches.
They were relativly inexpensive and did not depend on the bobbins or long pins to work.
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Could this help: https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?action=search2
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Tried several variations, Hinge repair, door hinge, hinge, etc.
None worked.
What I am seeking may have been in a thread that was not originally about door hinges?
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Ah, they are here, https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=6375.15
Igubal ball joints.
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Email sent to Iguball.
Hoping they have a US outlet and may help me to understand the posted drawings.
It is the adjustment that is confusing me a little.
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I don't think that this solution depends upon the brand of ball joint. But I admit that I don't fully understand it.
I think he's (Hachille) on to something here though. Looks like real potential. The problem with the original setup is that it all needs to be (or should be, anyway) co-axial, and it's difficult to achieve. This doesn't demand that.
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I only have three sets of doors to do.
If I get this sorted maybe I will assemble some kits for others too.
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The Banks hinges don’t require coaxiality. So it will be interesting to see what having a ball joint adds.
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Yes, but the Banks kit is "Bloody awful" for expense!
This looks to be well under $100 for both doors.
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I don't think that this solution depends upon the brand of ball joint. But I admit that I don't fully understand it.
I think he's (Hachille) on to something here though. Looks like real potential. The problem with the original setup is that it all needs to be (or should be, anyway) co-axial, and it's difficult to achieve. This doesn't demand that.
This is exactly the advantage of ball joints. The axis of rotation is aligned between the two centers of the ball joints. It is not necessarily aligned with the two holes in the bodywork. With a ball joint, the weight of the door rests on a large surface of this plastic that does not wear out at this rotation speed. I thought a lot about whether I should buy the Banks system. I know that many people use it and are satisfied. I had big doubts, and I do not regret this igubal assembly, because after all the years of use I have never had to readjust. The closure is perfect. But be careful, to tighten the screw at the top you have to remove the dashboard (easy on the S1). And for the bottom screw, provide an opening.
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I am disappointed to not get a response to my inquiry.
There are probably domestic (USA) suppliers.
I will get back to this in the new year.
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I don't know what you asked them, of course. But the part is very general-purpose and I'm not surprised if they don't know how to help you apply it to your Europa. They could still answer you. Maybe they're like the British suppliers though. Most are kind of helpful if you're about to order. Otherwise, forget it.
When I get to it and figure out how to get the door off, I'll have some questions for Hachille. I don't really understand how he has them mounted. I suppose I could figure something out, but would like to benefit from his experience.
Google translate was only so helpful though when it gave him "Be careful, you have to be empty or there are red arrows." ! I know all those words, but I sure don't know what that means! :-)
Below is the page detailing the part, -12 being the specific one.
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I have two sets of doors already off, and one more set to remove.
Of course the car I need to fix most urgently is the one with the doors still on it.
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I don't know what you asked them, of course. But the part is very general-purpose and I'm not surprised if they don't know how to help you apply it to your Europa. They could still answer you. Maybe they're like the British suppliers though. Most are kind of helpful if you're about to order. Otherwise, forget it.
When I get to it and figure out how to get the door off, I'll have some questions for Hachille. I don't really understand how he has them mounted. I suppose I could figure something out, but would like to benefit from his experience.
Google translate was only so helpful though when it gave him "Be careful, you have to be empty or there are red arrows." ! I know all those words, but I sure don't know what that means! :-)
Below is the page detailing the part, -12 being the specific one.
Hello
This means that the ball joint must be able to move up or down. The red arrows show that the space is available to move up or down.
When using a 26mm cone 2 drill bit, you get a tight fit with the igubal ball joint. It is possible to push it in and it will no longer slip. The igubal ball joint has a diameter of 26.1mm.
By using a new drill bit and a 17mm socket to turn it, it is the outside of the socket which is +-25mm that centers the drilling. The drill bit is between the two drillings.
I hope my translation is correct
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Look at McMaster-Carr 1071K25 looks very similar if not the same.
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Pic ….
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There are more pictures from Hachille on page 67 of my build thread for TCST because I had questions too!
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Ah, McMaster.
I failed when I looked there.
Local will be simpler.
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Apparently I am really bad at search.
I cannot find pics of this on page 67 of your thread, or am I looking in the wrong place?
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Richard,
I have mine set up to show newest post to oldest so it may be in reverse order :confused: it is on page 7 in the oldest to newest chronology.
Sorry for any confusion ::)
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Igubal sells directly in the US, I see. Their US base is in Rhode Island.
https://www.igus.com/product/igubal-KGLM
Vince
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Richard: here are the posts that T-fource is referring to:
https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=4034.msg44783#msg44783
-V
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I made an effort to translate the text of the assembly drawing.
Some words did not translate well.
Montage porte ibre en hauteur Mounting the door ibre in height (ibre?)
Bleu : Porte Blue: Door
Noir : Coque Black: Hull
Rotule plastique Igubal Igubal plastic ball joint
En plastique technique Made of engineering plastic
Rondelle fine 8 End washers 8
Rondelle epaisse 8 Thick washer 8
Jeux de reglage Adjustment Sets
Montage port fixe en hauteur Fixed port mounting at height
Insere de coque inferieur Lower shell insert
Cale de position pour la hauteur de la porte Position wedge for door height
Adjustment serre adjustment greenhouse
Cale de hauteur En plastique technicque Height wedge Made of technical plastic
Now, is the other plastic component sold or something I need to make myself?
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Montage porte ibre en hauteur Mounting the door ibre in height (ibre?)
'ibre' seems to be a victim of JPEG compression and should read 'libre' -> 'free or freely'. It means that the upper door mount is not restricting the vertical positioning of the door. The green part of the ball bearing is able to slide on the purple coloured insert.
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Hachille, what is the part sticking through the door and one is covered with the rubber cover?
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I made an effort to translate the text of the assembly drawing.
Some words did not translate well.
Montage porte ibre en hauteur Mounting the door ibre in height (ibre?)= Nockenwelle's translation is perfect
action=post;quote=73938;topic=6824.15#postmodify
Bleu : Porte Blue: Door = Yes
Noir : Coque Black: Hull = This is the bodywork. So the fixed part relative to the door.
Rotule plastique Igubal Igubal plastic ball joint
En plastique technique Made of engineering plastic= It is a plastic that has good mechanical quality. PA6 for example
Rondelle fine 8 End washers 8 = example:M8 x 22 x 1.5
Rondelle epaisse 8 Thick washer 8 =example:M8 x 30x 5
Jeux de reglage Adjustment Sets = empty space to move the M8 screw
Montage port fixe en hauteur Fixed port mounting at height = the assembly of the part at the bottom of the door, fixes the height position of the door
Insere de coque inferieur Lower shell insert = It is the aluminum part "Bobins" which is in the fiberglass
Cale de position pour la hauteur de la porte Position wedge for door height = It is a plastic part (PA6 for example), which must be custom-made to obtain the correct height position of the door.
Adjustment serre adjustment greenhouse = With a S1=Light door. There is no need to fix the ball joint in the door. This is the advantage of it being plastic which can have a tight fit. Probably the same for an S2
Cale de hauteur En plastique technicque Height wedge Made of technical plastic = 11mm for my car. maybe 10 for yours. Et PA6
Now, is the other plastic component sold or something I need to make myself= Yes make myself?
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Hachille, what is the part sticking through the door and one is covered with the rubber cover?
the aluminum part holds the rubber part. The rubber part must be cut so that the door when fully opened crushes the 2 rubbers at the same time.
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So they aren’t really part of the pivots?
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I believe no, those are 'bumpers' or 'stops' that keep the door from opening too far and damaging the leading edge.
I don't mean to answer for Hachille, but that's my English translation of what I've read so far.
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The doors don’t have a well defined opening stop. Hachille added these to give the door some way of stopping in the open position. Otherwise the door might bang into the body and chip paint.
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What stops them with the original setup?
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Before I took mine apart, an edge of the door kind of jammed into the weatherstrip around the door opening. Pretty vague stop, really. I could imagine a differently adjusted door getting paint on paint contact, which would eventually chip.
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I really like the big idea here. I have a new body with doors etc arriving soon.
Initial questions - are there any other drawings photos sketches etc of the installation?
And in detail - how are the plastic ball housings retained in the door? - adhesive or mechanical ie small screws.
Or have I missed something
Which is entirely possible.
Thanks
Grant
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If I am not mistaken they are a press fit in the door bobbin after you drill them out with a 26mm drill bit?
Is that correct Hachille?
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If I am not mistaken they are a press fit in the door bobbin after you drill them out with a 26mm drill bit?
Is that correct Hachille?
yes that's correct. It could also be glued or screwed in if needed. But I've never needed it.
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Thanks for the quick response.
As far as I know, the new doors do not have the metal bobbins moulded in.
The body is from Banks/Lotus Supplies and I guess they expect that you will use their door hinge system.
Guess I'll have to do some re engineering!
To be expected on Lotus projects.
Regards
Grant
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What stops them with the original setup?
There is a vertical thick foam strip at the front inside corner of the body where you can imagine that the leading edge of the door would strike the opening. If you look from the outside as you CAREFULLY open the door, look where the leading edge of the door moves in relation to the body, and that will inform where to put the replacement. I just used foam weatherstripping with a spit coat of adhesive on both the body and the foam (so as to not ruin the freshly painted body) to 'improve' the bond (yeah that is my story I'm sticking to...) where the Hethel gnomes originally placed it.
YMMV. It held up for the 12 years subsequent to the refinishing, so I guess it was a good idea and never chipped the leading edge of the door. Was it right? It worked. That's what counts. Can you overthink it? Yeah, but pretty sure they didn't back in the day.
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Hachille does the door rest on the nylon piece you machined to set the height and rotate on it too?
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Hachille does the door rest on the nylon piece you machined to set the height and rotate on it too?
It is the ball joint that presses on the part that must be manufactured for the height. But since the outer ring of the ball joint is fixed on the door, I can say yes.
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Thanks Hachille.
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'Web lied to me!
I was going to buy these today, but there is NO McMaster Carr in Reno.
So I will order a set in the morning to get this sorted out.
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McMaster-Carr 1071K25 four pieces ordered.
So now I will have parts to work with.
Once they are in hand this should not be too hard to sort out.
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Did you get the parts you ordered Richard? Any progress?
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Tracking says they will be here on Monday.
A bit slow, seems thay are coming from the East, not CA as expected.
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I think I have all of this sorted with the possible exception of adjustment.
Thinking that I may make the aluminum bolt with an eccentric shaft.
Then all that would be needed for adjustment would be to rotate the bolt.
Anxious to give this a try!
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Looking forward to your results!
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I think I have all of this sorted with the possible exception of adjustment.
Thinking that I may make the aluminum bolt with an eccentric shaft.
Then all that would be needed for adjustment would be to rotate the bolt.
Anxious to give this a try!
Hello,
I think the eccentric screw will be a problem. You have to be able to position the screw anywhere in the bodywork drilling. It is possible that the drilling is concentric with the ball joint. Normally the principle is to position the door perfectly, and tighten the two screws from the inside. ;)
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That would require the hole the bolt passes through in the door sill to be a little oversize.
My parts finally arrived at 5:30 in the evening.
I will try to work with them some in the morning.
I think I may cut a shallow ring in them for a wire that would prevent them slipping in the door.
If this works well I have two more cars to do soon.
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I will most likely make parts from aluminum as that is what I have on hand.
I would have to buy plastic.
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If I understand the assembly correctly, the hole in the sill is actually over-sized. It's the 1/2 in. hole through the bobbin for the original hinge pin. Hachille's assembly uses an 8mm bolt, so there is plenty of room to make adjustment.
Right?
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If I understand the assembly correctly, the hole in the sill is actually over-sized. It's the 1/2 in. hole through the bobbin for the original hinge pin. Hachille's assembly uses an 8mm bolt, so there is plenty of room to make adjustment.
Right?
Yes that's exactly it.
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Merci!
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Bought bolts today, but 5/16" x 2".
Barely larger diameter but takes standard SAE wrenches as most of the car does.
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One set/side adapters done.
I will do a second set tomorrow.
First set goes to the Red car.
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Pics please
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Soon.
Need to pull the red doors and figure out my best way to fit these swivel inserts.
I want something simple and quick.
Thinking of a bushing to guide a hole saw.
Followed by a reamer.
26mm drill is not so common here.
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Just ordered a "Precision" 26mm hole saw. $8.00 on feeBay.
I will make a bushing to fit the drill portion so that it centers into the original hole in the door.
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First set of adapter shanks done.
I was able to fit them using the existing outer hole in the sill so do not see a reason to cut the inside.
I don't know why the thumbnail is not displaying.
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Well, I ran into another obstacle.
Once I removed the old rusted solid door bushings I am left with a nearly square hole at the top and bottom of each door that is larger than the part I want to put in place.
I made a pilot that is the same size as the pivot ball OD.
I will us it while I fill the excess space with epoxy or fiberglass.
If necessary I could make an aluminum insert to do the same thing but without my CNC up and running it would be tedious.
I am unsure why Hachille's doors seem to differ from these S2 doors?
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Ah ha!
Hachille has an early S1.
Most of us have S2/TC's
The shape of the door bobbin is different.
Round vs squared.
The elegant solution is a bit more complex for the S2/TC.
A squared insert with flange and countersunk center becomes the nice way to handle this.
I could do them on the manual mill but for production it is one more item for the CNC.
This first car will probably get the bobbins filled with fiberglass or epoxy as I am in a bit of a rush.
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Since I have an Ender 3 printer gathering dust I thought maybe I could use it to print the door bushings I need, cheap.
Sketching the model went well, it looks perfect.
But when I import it to Cura it reduces the scale to ridiculously small.
I corrected that by rescaling.
But, when I slice it caps are created over the open areas making the piece useless. :headbanger:
Anyone here have a clue for me?
So far web search has been fruitless.
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My son said check the dimensional units as he thinks Cura defaults to mm. He used Prusa slicer on his Ender 3 as he always had trouble with Cura. He said he could slice files if you need him to.
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I found that I already have PruSlicer on another computer.
Did the export-import dance and tried again with Pru.
The Pru rendering looks correct, I will know for sure in a couple of hours.
One thing 3D is not, fast.
I did use MM for the first try too.
If this works I need four to start with.
A dozen for all three bodies/doors.
At least this time I remembered to save the CAD in steps so I may edit it more easily.
A few minutes in and it looks good so far.
This is the cheapest possible material, too bad is is so slow.
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I have a nearly successful S2/TC adapter bush for the Hachille type door hinge conversion.
The ID came out about .020" small.
3D does not print a perfect circle, it is a just slightly faceted.
Close enough that a little sanding will save the first part.
I will tweak the geometry for the next one.
As long as the printer is warmed up, I am also printing hinge gaskets. :)
Well, I WAS printing gaskets.
One PITA about 3D is getting the part to remain adhered to the build plate.
Long thin parts, so of course they curled just enough to be ruined.
Another try.
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Printer adjusted, hinge gaskets now working.
I've made adjustments and will retry the door bushings in the morning.
OK, the morning when I get up.
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:)
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Any progress Richard?
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Why do we have to download a file to see your photos? Any idea?
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The doors don’t have a well defined opening stop. Hachille added these to give the door some way of stopping in the open position. Otherwise the door might bang into the body and chip paint.
To complete, I also added fiber and resin where the red arrows are in the photo.
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Why do we have to download a file to see your photos? Any idea?
No, I tried to fix that but had no luck.
I am attaching them the same way I always have.
Something to do with having to change the file extension from the phone default?
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Why do we have to download a file to see your photos? Any idea?
The pic is in HEIC format, which is a container for the .jpg file.
The forum software likely can't show it as per usual due to that.
Richard is using an iPhone which arrives with the HEIC format set as the default, these days.
But it can be changed back as many do.
Settings > Camera > Formats > Most Compatible.
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Hmmm. OK! Thanks. Good ol' Apple! :-)
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I suspected something like that.
Been having issues getting the camera to upload so started using the phone.
Looks like a new cable for the camera is due.
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Wednesday I should be able to make a run at confirming that my hinge adapter design is correct.
I may need to do a small revision to ensure easy fitting and full articulation.
I doubt that very much articulation is really needed.
Thickness of the mounting flange and spacers are most of what I need to confirm.
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In an hour I will know if my latest revision of the S2/TC door hinge adapter bushings is correct.
If it is I will begin printing them in bulk.
The ball inserts are inexpensive.
My printed bushings are cheap, the price of hardware is somewhat high.
I also have to make some insert bushings to adapt the balls to the bolts, I expect to do them in aluminum on my lathe.
Lots of options for the bolts, steel, aluminum, titanium, how light do you want to go?
It may be worth mentioning that even with steel hardware there is a significant weight savings with this hinge conversion.
Not ready to set prices yet, but this will be much less expensive than any other option on the market.
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How is this project going Richard? I hope to worry about installing doors soon so I can test drive my project ....
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If you have some help to fit your doors I can send you a set of the adapters.
I am confident in this but cannot find any help with the trial fitting.
I hope to solve that soon, all I have to do is overpay per hour.
AND the hard part, find someone sober-not under the influence-not a thief. :headbanger: