Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Dilkris on Tuesday,June 25, 2024, 05:56:28 AM
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What am I doing wrong here...??
I have spent some time practicing with both bending brake pipe and forming flares - the bending of the pipe I am comfortable with, but the forming of flares not at all - I have probably formed 40 or so flares practicing but I am far from comfortable with the results as yet.
I am using the brake pipe as per details on the photo and the flare tool as equally on photo.
"Sometimes" but very rarely, I get a well formed flare, (see the brake pipe on the left of the 2 shown side by side) - but seemingly I always get an unwanted deformation of the flare, (almost like a small crease), as shown by the brake pipe on the right with red tape - why?
I have diligently prepared the ends of the pipe prior to forming, used grease, carefully set the protrusion of the pipe in the flare tool and tried slow forming and rapid forming by varying the speed upon which I wind in the die nut, all to no avail. :confused:
Surely some member has lived this same journey - what is the secret?
Help please - this is getting me down. :(
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For all my new brake lines, I used this tool.
Expensive, but I have never had any bad male or female flare.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282716795573
I think the quality of your flaring tool is the problem. Only my opinion, and unless I used both tools side by side on the same pipe, I could not make a proper conclusion.
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I hear you 4129R - but for me £159 plus postage to make 23 flares is a hard sell - sure if I was rebuilding cars for a living ok but I'm not.
The tool I am using appears to be well regarded and generally accepted in the industry - they also have the advantage of being able to be taken to the site of the flare - as opposed to the alternative as suggested which I believe (correct me if I am wrong) has to be mounted in a vice or similar.
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Yes it has to be used in a vice.
You can sell it for a decent price on eBay after you have finished using it.
Shame you are not closer, you could have borrowed mine.
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I tried a cheaper $30 tool but ended up with the Eastwood brand tool posted above. There wasn't an Ebay version back then and I didn't want to risk and regret a leak. I think I paid $220 for having the name Eastwood on it. Every flare was perfect though. To do again, I would get the cheaper Ebay version.
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Dilkris,
I feel your pain acutely. I too had to do allot of practice and develop my own little tricks that are not mentioned in the instruction pamphlet. I should have kept better notes because it has been several years since I last used the tool but I do remember these bits;
1. I did some detail deburring before and after flaring. 3/16" SS lines...aluminum is a breeze.
2. The distance that the tube protrudes from the face of the tool was critical. I checked my work with a vernier caliper as I went along.
3. I used motor oil as a lubricant.
4. I cussed allot and trashed some length of tubing.
Ultimately, I developed the knack and was an expert at that moment in time. If I did it today, I would have to relearn all those little trick techniques all over again. Hang in there.
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Dilkris,
I feel your pain acutely.
3. I used motor oil as a lubricant.
4. I cussed allot and trashed some length of tubing.
At least I am not alone - I feel better now.... :)
Haven't tried motor oil as lubricant - I'll give it a go.
Yes - I have so far trashed some metres of tubing..... :confused:
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I use the same type of flare tool and whilst I can't remember what make mine is (draper ?), it looks very similar. I've used it with both plain copper and 90/10 cunifer/kunifer and usually it's fine. I have had failures but usually it's been down to me and not the tool. For example;
1. not cutting the tube squarely. These days I use a small pipe cutter which is usually good enough but can deform the bore so I'll de-burr that before flaring.
2. not locating or gripping the tube hard enough. I push the tube hard against the location pin and keep it there whilst tightening the two bolts. I really swing on them, far more than I expect you should need to but if the tube moves even a fraction when you're flaring then it's game over.
3. I always use the red rubber grease as lubricant. When I first made pipes I was hit & miss, sometimes I applied it, sometimes not. Then I noticed it was easier and smoother with and so stuck with it. Shock revalation - reading the instructions works !
Looking at those deformed flares I wonder if they are moving when flaring, something must be getting the tool or tube off centre to get a pronounced sideways shift. I have had failures where it's not formed correctly and usually it's been because the tube has slipped in the tool grip. Only a fraction but enough to mess it up.
But if the kit can make a perfect flare once, it can do it again so it's either down to the tube quality or the process/method. Frustrating I know, but you've done it once so it can be done again.
One thing you could try is annealling the end before flaring on the off chance that the tubing is at the higher end of spec. Heat to red heat and then cool, very simple in a butane flame. You can do just the last 5/6mm that you want to flare and see how that goes, it should be much easier.
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Thankyou everyone for your thoughts, comments and suggestions - I'll have another go tomorrow embracing them all and report on progress accordingly (hopefully) or lack of. :)
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Allot of heavy grease would be better. The important thing is to keep the grip part of the tool dry as a bone.
If this flaring job is giving you angst, you'll want to avoid fabricating SS braided hoses and AN fittings. Fitting those requires an entirely new bag of magic tricks that will bring you to tears! Not to mention bloody, punctured fingers.
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I found that it has too much brake line sticking out using their stop … I used a small drill bit (I think about .040”) as a spacer between the brake line and stop to shorten the brake line protrusion from the tools and it formed decent bubble flares for me ….
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I found that it has too much brake line sticking out using their stop … I used a small drill bit (I think about .040”) as a spacer between the brake line and stop to shorten the brake line protrusion from the tools and it formed decent bubble flares for me ….
My thoughts entirely - I put a washer on the measuring bolt head thinking the brake pipe was not protruding through the die enough - same result.
I had not as yet tried shortening the length of pipe protruding - I'll give it a go.
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Thankyou everyone for your thoughts, comments and suggestions - I'll have another go tomorrow embracing them all and report on progress accordingly (hopefully) or lack of. :)
OK - please see attached photo's, many of which should answer points previously made. I have now literally tried everything, using oil as opposed to grease as lubricant and even annealing the last 5mm of the end of the brake pipe - all to no avail. I have even tried using brake pipe from differing suppliers.
I simply cannot reliably reproduce a good flare - I make 1 good one - then 5 bad - the last photo shows some of the results, out of 25 attempts, 18 of them I would classify as failures and only 7 are good.
I pretty much give in with this and am ready to dig a big hole and bury the whole project - I have been at this for some days and for something so straight forward it is seriously getting me down
A friend of mine uses the same system and I am going to borrow his to see if the fault lies within the die and the punch itself.
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Looking at the photo of your tubing end pre- flare, I believe you are "over-prepping" the end. There appears to be a lot of metal removed from the tip from excessive deburring/sanding. Take a look at my before pictures. After cutting the tube with my tubing cutter, all I do to prep the end is to very lightly deburr the inside with a reamer and very lightly deburr the outside edge with fine emory cloth. Very little metal is removed. My resultant bubble flare is decent enough. I'm using a similar on car tool that you are using.
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Thankyou for the post Grumblebuns - "yes" to all intents and purposes the tools are identical and they do have a wealth of successful provenance.
I have tried all manner of preparation for the ends pre flare - dressing on a fine stone bench grinder to ensure a squared face - removing internal and external burrs - no difference.
I have tried the opposite by simply cutting with the pipe cutter, no dressing and straight into the die - no difference.
It is frustrating. :confused:
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Looking at the photos of the tip of your tube, the opening looks a bit deformed, not concentric with the diameter of the tube itself. Any irregularity at the tip will cause a deformed flare.
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HI:
I had a few problems with the same set as you.
Try using a larger size pipe/tube cutter as I found I was using to much pressure on the cutting wheel with each rotation causing a slightly deformed cut.
It had to have been slight in nature because I just went to a larger sized cutter(because I could find the smaller version) and it all worked out.
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I stuck the tubing barely out of the other side of the tool and used it as a guide and filed the tubing flush to the tool….deburred the inside with my pocket knife…
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Bernie's post got me thinking that your tube cutting technique could be the source for your problem.
1. Make sure that your cutting wheel is sharp on your tubing cutter. You have to use a tubing cutter for square cuts
2. You may be using too great of a force on your initial cut deforming the tube. On the first cut, use a light amount of force on the wheel.
3. On subsequent cuts, increase the amount of force slightly.
4. After the wheel starts cutting into the tube, you can increase the amount of force until the tube is cut.
As I stated earlier, the center of the tubing hole has to be perfectly round, burr free and concentric with the tubing diameter.
Minimize the amount of metal removal by excessive deburring and sanding of the tube end.
IF you are still having deformed flares after all of the above, I give up.
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Looking again at those photos I must admit I'm struggling. I've no inside knowledge on how these tools work so this is pure guesswork...
On the failed flares it looks to me as if the bottom part of the flare made against the die holder is always right. I'd guess that this part is formed first as the die screws down, compresses the tube and tries to push it backwards until it meets the base of the die. Once it meets resistance I'm guessing that the top part of the flare is formed as the die screws further in. There's a friction/rotation effect with the to flare, not so much with the base flare ?
If the tubing is too high in the die holder then if you keep ramping down the metal has got to go somewhere and it looks to me as if it's spreading over/sideways.Why you would get some flares perfect and others failing is a real puzzle.
Maybe the perfect ones moved slightly downwards in the die holder and that's the reason, these are random thoughts with no great knowledge behind them. In some of the photos I can see grip marks on the tube which I guess are from the base of the die holder, I think on your next test run I'd mark the end of the tube as it comes out of the holder and see if it moves at all.
Given how much trouble you're having the other experiment I'd try is shortening the amount of tube sticking through as posted earlier. Set it correctly according to the levelling die, mark on the tube where it sticks out and then lower it by 1mm, that might be too much but see what happens.
These tools are mass produced and there's always the chance the dimensions are off slightly and that's causing your problems. If you do have access to another tool then I'd try that, preferably with the owner present so they can see if you're doing something wrong that we've not picked up on.
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OK - thanks everyone for taking the time to comment - I am not clever enough to understand how to write one mail encompassing copies of multiple comments from various members so....
Regarding how the brake pipe is cut and dressed I have tried everything I can think of ie:-
1. Cut with pipe cutter and internally deburred with a deburring tool.
2. Cut with pipe cutter and then removed internal burr with 3mm drill bit.
3. Cut with angle grinder, dressed square on fine stone bench grinding wheel, added external chamfer, deburred with wire wheel.
4. Cut with pipe cutter and do nothing with the finished cut face.
All of the above made no difference.
Lubrication - I have tried the suppled die grease, engine oil, gearbox oil - no difference.
Quality of pipe - I have 3 rolls of brake pipe from differing sources - tried all - no difference.
Speed of forming - I have tried winding in the die slowly and quickly - no difference.
I was very interested in a comment made of the die transmitting a turning moment to the pipe whilst forming the flare, this causing the effect I am experiencing. This to me is highly plausible. When you look at the +£150 tools for creating brake pipe flares, the clamping arrangement of the pipe is more or less identical BUT the die is pressed into the pipe, there is no turning moment exerted.
Many people have used these tools with zero problem so I believe my problem is in the tool and the machined tolerances; I cannot remember for the life of me where I bought it from. There is no manufacturers or suppliers name on the instruction sheet so maybe its a poor copy.
I am now going into the workshop to collect the tool, put it in the box it came in, and hurl it as far as I can over the rear fence. It won't result in me producing brake pipe flares but I guarantee it will make me feel better.
My next post on the subject will be how far it went......
Thankyou all for your thoughts, comments and taking the time to post. :thumbup:
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Beware of neighbours' greenhouses.
Buy a decent vice held tool and sell it when you have finished.
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I concur with Alex (4129R) I have made many brakes pipes for various cars over the years and the "proper" press type tool I bought after so many miserable experiences with DIY tools has saved a lot of wasted pipes and time. If you don't want to buy one ask around your local garages or even better, race prep shops. Most will have just such a tool and will probably be happy to allow you to use it at their premises to make your pipes up for the price a a beer or two :BEER3:. If you are out in the boonies with no racers nearby then agricultural engineers may be a good alternative option!
Best, Nick
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Before you toss the tool, bring it to a mechanic and let him try it out. If his flares come out like yours, then its the tool. If the flares are good then its you.
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I have used similar tool for decades with no issues. I remove the burr from cutting the pipe but otherwise don’t fuss that much. So, obviously, you have a defective tool. Possibly a bit too much play so the tool shifts sideways, or a misshaped end. Who knows.
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OK - go figure this then..... :dontknow:
I borrow my friends identical tool - produces 5 consecutive perfect flares from 3 separate rolls of brake pipe... !!!
I followed the exact same procedure as before....
Doesn't make sense does it ?? :confused:
What a journey.....
I hope my experience of this will be of help to others.
PS: Haven't hammered the original tool into the ground yet - will post pictures later..... !!
Thankyou everybody for your input - will be a 6 beer night this end for me....
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I am now going into the workshop to collect the tool, put it in the box it came in, and hurl it as far as I can over the rear fence. It won't result in me producing brake pipe flares but I guarantee it will make me feel better.
My next post on the subject will be how far it went......
:FUNNY:
I just love that comment.
You sir, are a genuine Lotus owner..... with the (mental) scars to prove it. Rest assured you're amongst friends !
Like John I'm actually suspecting the tool itself because although it looks ok in the photos but might be on the edge of tolerance somewhere. I also don't take that much care about cutting the pipe, I use the same cutter you've got but with very light pressure and it takes a few minutes to make the cut. I'll de-burr the bore with whatever's handy and then go for it.
Since this discussion started my memory has improved and I'm on the second of such tools. The first was the same design dies & holder but different handle and method of setting the brake tube height. That was the Draper one and I bought it in the 70s and used it until the threads wore and started chipping. The current one is like yours and it's made pipes for 2x MR2's, a set for the Elan when I went dual circuit and loads of pipes for the Europa as I've changed brake systems/components over the last 10yrs or so.
So the cheap versions can work and if you're going to invest again, just go for one from a company with a reputation for good kit rather than Ebay ?
Edit to add - you must have posted the same time I did. I think that just about nails it on the tool, you've got a duff 'un. And mine's in a plastic box like that one as well.....
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I am now going into the workshop to collect the tool, put it in the box it came in, and hurl it as far as I can over the rear fence. It won't result in me producing brake pipe flares but I guarantee it will make me feel better.
My next post on the subject will be how far it went......
Thankyou all for your thoughts, comments and taking the time to post. :thumbup:
I agree with everything EuropaTC said. That is the best comment I've seen in a LONG time!!! I am sorry it was at your expense.
BTW - How far did it go?