Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: dakazman on Sunday,October 08, 2023, 12:24:34 PM
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I pulled out the gearbox and install a new clutch disc/pressure plate and release bearing as a kit from RD. This assembly is now doing the same thing as the one I took out, hitting the fingers of the pressure plate and stopping. Thinking I must have put the release bearing or shaft together incorrectly I checked it again with the parts manual. All seem correctly installed. there is also no more forward travel for the release bearing to disengage the pressure plate. I checked the parts manual now thinking my bellhousing is incorrect for the car, so It's possibility since there is two versions . I never drove the car, but the gearbox was in it.
Question, why would there so much travel of the release bearing to get to the pressure plate? The bellhousing is against the engine block.
Dakazman
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Are you sure you have adjusted the clutch cable correctly?
I press the arm as far as possible against the fingers, and slacken the cable 1/4" from that point.
That gives me a normal clutch.
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I don’t have the cable even on yet . Movement by hand I’m out to full swing. All I have is free play.
I posted the pics afterwards from my phone. After I was writing the thread on my desktop.
Dakazman
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I believe that what you're dealing with is a problem that arose years ago when the flat-faced release bearings and associated pressure plates were NLA and replaced with the current type (round-faced release bearings that made contact with the pressure plate fingers). It caused a bit of consternation and apparently still does. The solution to the problem was to machine a release bearing hub, to replace the original one, that is longer, thus allowing the release bearing face to contact the pressure plate fingers. I don't have the dimensions for the new style hub, but years ago I bought one from Mark Markell who took the time to figure the solution and put the specs on the Golden Gate Lotus web site. I just looked for it and couldn't find it. But Mark is still a member of this group or maybe it's the other one Lotus Europa Groups. If not, I'm sure somebody else has been through this who can help you out.
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I believe that what you're dealing with is a problem that arose years ago when the flat-faced release bearings and associated pressure plates were NLA and replaced with the current type (round-faced release bearings that made contact with the pressure plate fingers). It caused a bit of consternation and apparently still does. The solution to the problem was to machine a release bearing hub, to replace the original one, that is longer, thus allowing the release bearing face to contact the pressure plate fingers. I don't have the dimensions for the new style hub, but years ago I bought one from Mark Markell who took the time to figure the solution and put the specs on the Golden Gate Lotus web site. I just looked for it and couldn't find it. But Mark is still a member of this group or maybe it's the other one Lotus Europa Groups. If not, I'm sure somebody else has been through this who can help you out.
Yes I had the holder machined to fit according to the design dimensions per RD that came in the kit.
See pic.
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I found a picture of the bell housing before taking it apart after initial cleaning. I need to check this part number.
I could also have an incorrect flywheel . Maybe one that is a little thicker. Just a thought. I don’t think i mixed them up .
Dakazman
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I found a picture of the bell housing before taking it apart after initial cleaning. I need to check this part number.
I could also have an incorrect flywheel . Maybe one that is a little thicker. Just a thought. I don’t think i mixed them up .
Dakazman
sent you a PM.
what you're looking for are the right bearing. The curved face ones won't work properly if you are using the OEM "200D" pressure plate. If it's not (and I think that is what RD is selling right now), all bets are off. I'm willing to posit that the length of the bearing assembly is less than the original, so, from the pivot point of the carrier to the face of the bearing is less than what is needed to engage the fingers on the pressure plate and release the clutch. Not having my hands on it, that's what I'd guess.
Have you pinged the r16shop in the netherlands for the right parts for the R16-based mill? While you have to be certain of what you need, I've always found Geert to be responsive and help as much as he can (fwiw, that's the concern that's repopping the lotus-spec cams to help us out.)
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Bryan, thank you for all your input.
That is the assembly I just removed. Then I purchased a new kit from RD and had the carrier cut .
So the Steve option is out. However by turning over the carrier arm shortened the free throw it seems to be over the pull cables throw.
I uploaded a video to YouTube here of the free throw on the arm .
https://youtube.com/shorts/1JO0eQJWjIo?si=O6AMmX83MdnoXkdd
I also compared a tc to a s2 housing just to see the angle of the carrier arm.
So it seems that the carrier will stay an originally installed but the drift pin holes need to be welded up and clocked for more movement within the arc of the pull cable .
Thoughts?
Dakazman
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The pressure plate that goes with the flat-faced release bearing went out of production over 20 years ago. RD is not selling that type. One can see in the photos that go with the original posting that the fingered type is being used. Your flywheel is fine and so is your bell housing. The problem, in spite of the fact that you machined the T.O. bearing hub per instructions (turning down the O.D. of the bearing mating surface) does not get the bearing to contact the pressure plate fingers. The bearing mounting surface needs to be lengthened to get the bearing to contact the fingers (see attach) by making a new hub. I have heard of a work around that involves not pressing the bearing fully home and putting shims behind it, but work arounds eventually turn into DPOs.
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Anyone have a drawing of the corrected carrier?
Seems this is likely to affect me too at some point, and I have a lathe.
If I can set up stops to simplify production I can make several.
Too bad I no longer have CNC's.
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Bjhomp,
I agree with you on the carrier problem. It definitely needs to be extended to work.
Thanks for the pfd part II file. I would also like a part number of this t.o. bearing supplied in kit .
I have another approach in mind, a floating carrier, halfway on shaft , leaving everything as is and cutting off the cable handle and clocking it to float or come forward, having enough throw to engage the fingers.
I could later add a shim for new position.
Dakazman
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The pressure plate that goes with the flat-faced release bearing went out of production over 20 years ago. RD is not selling that type. One can see in the photos that go with the original posting that the fingered type is being used. Your flywheel is fine and so is your bell housing. The problem, in spite of the fact that you machined the T.O. bearing hub per instructions (turning down the O.D. of the bearing mating surface) does not get the bearing to contact the pressure plate fingers. The bearing mounting surface needs to be lengthened to get the bearing to contact the fingers (see attach) by making a new hub. I have heard of a work around that involves not pressing the bearing fully home and putting shims behind it, but work arounds eventually turn into DPOs.
Don't want it to seem like I'm challenging you, but, received this from Steve at SJ Sportscars in the UK, who obtains his stock from Geert at the R16 shop, in response to a question I posed to him (in an email thread):
Yes, we are.
The cover is https://www.sjsportscars.com/parts-and-accessories/SJ046Q0004.htm
The throwout is https://www.sjsportscars.com/parts-and-accessories/SJ046Q0002.htm
Steve
On 10/10/2023 16:37, Bryan D. Boyle wrote:
> Steve:
>
> Geert sent me your contact info; for the r16 based motors, are you selling the proper pressure plate and flat faced throwout bearings? Rumor abounds that they've not been available for decades.
>
This was in response as a follow-on contact from Geert at the r16shop (who actually lists some Lotus parts to support us), who responded to a message I sent earlier this morning:
Hi Bryan
Interesting question.
I agree with you that they would never have used any different clutch systems so 99,9% sure that it will be the same.
I sell them to SJ sports in the UK so he will know for sure.
Do you know him?
Below his emailadress:
steve@sjsportscars.co.uk
PS: Did you see all the Lotus parts listed in our shop? Last added items were: Tappets(all R16 engines) and Camshafts for 821 engine.
Have a nice day
Regards Geert
>
>
>
> Geert:
>
> I know this is a bit out of your range of interest...but, are the
> original clutch pressure plates and throwout bearings for the R16 (as
> they were supplied to Lotus...like I said, out of your direct interest)
> motor (821, etc) still available? Had a question on this side as to
> whether the cork-faced pressure plate and the flat throwout on the
> carrier were still around somewhere. I see them in the r16shop listing,
> but wondering if they're useable on the 821 mills that was supplied to Chapman
> back in the day.
>
> Understand if you don't know... but you being the R16 expert, I can not imagine the
> the Regie changing more of the motor before they sold the kit to Chapman
> than the pistons, cam, and handing a solex dual throat on the manifold.
Shipping to this side sucks, but, according to these two experts...they are still available and in stock. Passing it on from two suppliers who say they have the parts in their stock.
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Thanks Bryan.
I know it takes a lot of time to reply to a thread and really appreciate any advice. After finding some scraps I figured, no harm in trying.
I read what you posted on Facebook to another thread on clutches and that he should extend the carrier crosshaft to the other side . So with that in mind I did just that . I also should be able to give the spherical to bearing to disengage the clutch fingers with the added throw of the arm. Clocked further back. Drilling two parallel holes were a little tedious but it work out .
I also compared the tc and s2 housings same arm on both but the tc had a longer throw. It also had a spherical to bearing. See last pic .
It’s still a work in progress, fabricating the arms now.
Dakazman
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Hmm, interesting one.
What angle is the clutch fork arm at when the release bearing touches the clutch?
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I pinned the shaft all ready but here are some pics of the shaft.
The last two pics are the travel I picked up.
I’ll try to find the angle it was but with the beginning angle forward as it was the throw was terrible
If it went any further upward the cable run would have to flex upwards
Dakazman
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Thanks Bryan.
I know it takes a lot of time to reply to a thread and really appreciate any advice. After finding some scraps I figured, no harm in trying.
I read what you posted on Facebook to another thread on clutches and that he should extend the carrier crosshaft to the other side . So with that in mind I did just that . I also should be able to give the spherical to bearing to disengage the clutch fingers with the added throw of the arm. Clocked further back. Drilling two parallel holes were a little tedious but it work out .
I also compared the tc and s2 housings same arm on both but the tc had a longer throw. It also had a spherical to bearing. See last pic .
It’s still a work in progress, fabricating the arms now.
Dakazman
Thanks! Nice work, bro. Thinking that will work just fine when you dial it in.
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Your call inspiration Bryan,
Anyway, I almost finished the arm, I’ll finish up by putting a torch on them ad finish the bends and trimming. I could have cut it out of the original but I like a fall back . If it works then just cutting the arm off and clocking it backwards, then rewelding will work for everyone.
Dakazman
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I believe that what you're dealing with is a problem that arose years ago when the flat-faced release bearings and associated pressure plates were NLA and replaced with the current type (round-faced release bearings that made contact with the pressure plate fingers). It caused a bit of consternation and apparently still does. The solution to the problem was to machine a release bearing hub, to replace the original one, that is longer, thus allowing the release bearing face to contact the pressure plate fingers. I don't have the dimensions for the new style hub, but years ago I bought one from Mark Markell who took the time to figure the solution and put the specs on the Golden Gate Lotus web site. I just looked for it and couldn't find it. But Mark is still a member of this group or maybe it's the other one Lotus Europa Groups. If not, I'm sure somebody else has been through this who can help you out.
Went to the Golden Gate site and found this:
Mark MarKell, Sr." <Type46@micro-engineering.com> Just a note about the clutch conversion we've been talking about. Some time ago I got disgusted with the price of a new or rebuilt Ferrodo 200D clutch with release pad as used in the Renault-powered versions of the Europa. Local rebuilders wouldn't touch it due to the unusual 3 eared release pad and the fibre facing needed. I found the Sachs clutch available from my local supplier for around $50 new. This is the replacement clutch for the Renault R-17 Gordini engine and is a bolt-up replacement as far as the flywheel is concerned. The main difference is the throwout bearing, which mounts similar to a TC with wire clips and needs a rounded face, rather than the slip-on flat unit required by the older Renault transaxle throwout fork. (the disk is the same.) At that point I generated a full Autocad drawing of the cross section for the flywheel, pressure plate, disk throwout bearing and transaxle and checked dimensions against a shop setup. I then found a suitable, but generic, throwout bearing and generated a drawing for the throwout bearing carrier which had to be about 1/2 inch longer than stock. We had 5 manufactured at my local machinist and did some tweaks to the drawings having to do with tolerances. David Davidian, Chris Munson, Mark Hollingsworth and I all have them installed and Jeff Hovis now has the setup built for Bob Bulfin to be installed on Jeff’s Gordini. This requires NO modifications to the flywheel or transaxle and the carrier is pressed into the bearing and can be re-used again later. The clutch operation is smoother than the original with a distinct 'over-center' feel. The clutch strength is the same as the original, maybe slightly stronger, and was originally installed in R-17 Gordinis. I can supply either the whole works or the drawings and a parts list. (So far no one has been able to buy the parts as cheap as I can supply them.) Supplying the copyrighted drawings will also imply free use of the drawing for anyone building their own, but a prohibition of building them for profit. I also make no profit from this venture. The Pressure plate was about $53, the disk $37 and the bearing about $19 if memory serves. The re-usable carrier ran $50. All parts new not rebuilt. BTW, a side issue was finding the generic equivalents for the pilot
bearing and the input shaft seal, both of which are CR parts available from most bearing houses. I mentioned this on the Lotus list about a year ago and there was very little interest. This work was spurred by problems David Davidian was having with a NEW clutch being very sticky and not disengaging. He eventually sent it to me and we found it was assembled incorrectly with one of the flat springs installed backwards. A call to the supplier found he was aware of the problem and had a number of others fail for the same reason, but was unwilling to take them back. If you have a similar problem with a new pressure plate drop me a line.
Here's the link:
https://www.gglotus.org/ggtech/europa-techinfo/lotuscht.htm
I did a page search for "Mark Markell" and the above post was at number 32 out of 39.
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Interested to see how your mod goes, D'man.
Repositioning the pins will gain release bearing travel, but is the arc of movement of the clutch fork then beyond optimal?
Maybe it has little impact on the heaviness of the clutch?
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When I fit a 395 I had to modify the clutch fork quite a bit. It went to the other side as well as a different orientation. I ground off where the arm was welded to the shaft and flipped the shaft so it went out the other side. I then fit the transaxle to the engine and welded the clutch fork arm back on in the orientation I needed.
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Thanks Guys,
I finished up making a new arm. I am bolting to the “New Kit” pressure plate and disc. Then just bolting on the bell housing where I can set the arms moment. I made it slightly longer to gain any mechanical advantage I can if possible . The cable has its limitations also when pulled.
Now with the carrier rod all the way through activation as a pusher is possible. It could also be used for some other feature.
I should have it all installed later today , and I’ll post pics. Then I’ll pull it all back out and install the original clutch and plate but keeping the curved release bearing.
Then I have another project to do and that is to build your jackstand listed here :
https://jbcollier.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-PRTWCMN/A
This is another first for me working under car with a body. 😅
Dakazman
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Good luck DMan!
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Success 😃
Installed the new clutch kit and pressure plate and just bell housing.
The free throw is approximately 1/2 on shaft and 10 degrees if that on rotation of the carrier shaft.
Marked and cut shaft to the length it stuck out with the original shaft.
Drilled the shaft hole in the arm approximately the same as it was also . Tomorrow I’ll weld it up and see if the pressure plate releases the disc . It should Fall out of center alignment.
I missed posting the shaft movement now, there are two sets of marks , yes. Movement is minimal!😃
Dakazman
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Got it all welded up and painted but I’m waiting for the rear seal.
I have a perfect use of the shaft on the opposite side. A clutch safety start switch and secondly as an anti theft device. 🤔
Dakazman
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Then I have another project to do and that is to build your jackstand listed here :
https://jbcollier.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-PRTWCMN/A
This is another first for me working under car with a body. 😅
Dakazman
Safety first:
I thought this would be a good time to build. I went into my storage shed and found an old tow bar I’ve been saving since the mid 90s, and said to myself, yep , that we’ll do.
About three hours later it was sitting under the backside of the car . What a difference, the car doesn’t move one bit.
So , Thanks JB , You probably hear that a lot and I for one appreciate your input and ideas.
So be cocky and a knowledgeable “B” 😂
At least now I won’t have this thing come down on me.
Dakazman
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Received my seal for the bell housing today and installed it, and set the pins to the cross shaft. My total throw on the movement of the arm is now approximately 45 degrees, all of which is usable and gives it an additional throw of 1/2'. I'll be installing the gearbox tomorrow.
Dakazman
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Fingers crossed….
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Thanks Turbo,
Those fingers crossed must have worked. :trophy: I won today. Except for one thing, the clutch pedal inside car stands up pretty much equal to the brake pedal. what keeps it from falling rearwards and onto the floor? Am I missing something?
Thinking back with all the trouble with this clutch I seriously believe the PO tried his hand at something. He said he drove it but didnt say when, he stated he couldnt get first gear. My input shaft is different than what's required, meaning not pinned in the center. the clutch cable broken, the clutch cable forward abutment missing. the abutment and the shaft holes are in the manual. all these items' members here have help me get through and across the finish line for now.
I Thank you all.
PS: now to pull the bell housing off and install gearbox.
Dakazman
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... the clutch pedal inside car stands up pretty much equal to the brake pedal. what keeps it from falling rearwards and onto the floor? Am I missing something?
Ultimately, the pressure plate keeps the pedal from falling to the floor because it keeps the throw out bearing from going past a certain point which keeps the cable from allowing the pedal going past a certain point... I think you get the idea.
The pedal is kept from falling rearward by a little post at the bottom of the pedal and the restricted motion of the clutch through the cable keeps the pedal from falling forward.
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Thanks BDA,
I just have too much disassembled and laying on the he floor. I think I just saw the full stop adjustment, the other must be under the carpet.
When setting up the VW cable awhile back I pressed on the small stay on cable , well one activation of the pressure plate the cable blew off. 😂 I got it all squared away and tested. All good now. I’ll work on that adjustment and install the gearbox tomorrow. Then find the next problem.
Dakazman
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Just to make sure you understand: There’s only one stop - the one that keeps the pedal from falling toward the driver’s seat. Ultimately, the clutch pressure plate springs are the stop that keeps the pedal from falling forward toward the front of the car.
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Got it🥱👍
Dakazman
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As others have said, the clutch pedal is held in the upright position by the action of the release bearing return spring pulling on the cable; there should be a stop post (on the TC it is a bolt in a sleeve) welded to the front of the bushing the pedal is welded to that keeps it from going any further (check the manual for how the pedal is aligned). Sometimes, that little post is worn down/broken off...so...if worn, I just drilled a hole in the floor and installed an AN3 bolt to account for it. Doubt the new owner even notices it...broken? I think you'll need to add a little piece of rod...
When you depress the clutch, the total travel will be regulated by the limits on the throwout/arm against the pressure plate.
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I rebuilt and plated my pedal assembly and added a lube channel into the shaft years ago documented here :
http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=2058.630
I just can’t reach it right now . 😃. I have to install my oil pressure gauge, mount facia , rehang column and hide wiring . Remove a few extensions I added to the DB10 relay to test everything.
Tried to install the gearbox today after shopping for concrete pavers and concrete bags plus a few 2/10s . I could not lift the gearbox in . 😅. I’m just getting too old for this. I’ll get it in tomorrow after a good rest.
Dakazman
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I've had my tranny out probably half a dozen times and I think until the last two (which were in the last two months) or three times I've had help. Maybe I can still do it but maybe I'd would hurt myself. Like most things, it's better with a friend.
I don't always remember to do this, but it's a nice idea to put a little grease on the splines of the input shaft to help it go in (staying away from all sorts of comments here! ;) ). I wouldn't say it always makes it but it might and won't make it harder.
I've found that once I get it in the car and generally in place, it takes a lot of shaking, wiggling, cursing, staring, pulling, and pushing to get it engaged with the clutch plate and it's pretty heavy and unwieldly to do all that to it. When you're close, you can pull it to the engine the last 1/2" with the engine to bell housing bolts. Be careful and remind yourself that you're screwing into aluminum so don't use much torque when doing that. If it takes a lot, it probably need some more coaxing.
I use a floor jack to hold it in position. Once it's in a little and is generally supported, sometimes someone underneath it can help coax it. I thought of using an engine hoist but I don't think it would have helped me.
Good luck!
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First thing in the morning with the aid of a motorcycle tie down strap to teeter the gearbox
I was able to muscle it in in about 10 minutes. Whew , now to get moving .
Dakazman
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TEN MINUTES!! That was easy! I guess not having a fifth gear makes it a lot easier.
Good for you!
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It was definitely better than trying to use jacks I don't think I would have lasted much longer, having the alignment awls also helped. Gavin's method of ramping up the back was what was able to be achieved, basic bootstrap method. The temps here are so refreshing. we hit a low of 60 degrees f.
Next time I will be setting it up under my ceiling hoist. I'll be testing all the problems with this one before testing a standby one I purchased.
Dakazman
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DMan,
You didn’t polish it while it was out :confused:
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:FUNNY: Turbo, I clean things once.
Anyway, that might not be the gearbox that's staying in it. After draining the oil out, I discovered allot of silver particles when turned upside down and vertically.
Dakazman
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All back together and back on the ground, except for the pulley adjustment for the water pump. Saving the roll pins for another time.
Which reminds me to bleed the coolant system.
Putting the dash back in and rehanging steering column.
Dakazman
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That tranny can't by yours. It isn't polished!!
What is the central mount thingy bolted to your cross member? What does it doe (if it's not a mount) and why do you need it? Isn't your tranny mounted in the rear?
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It looks like a scissor Jack.
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That’s correct silver. I mounted it there so it doesn’t slide all over . Not really necessary to hold in the boot or bonnet area. I posted that on my thread years ago.
BDA , slacking a bit lately here, too many other tasks coming up . It may be pulled soon after I road test it. I have a spare and will cycle it in to test it.
Then the other engines.🥱
Dakazman
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That’s correct silver. I mounted it there so it doesn’t slide all over . Not really necessary to hold in the boot or bonnet area. I posted that on my thread years ago.
BDA , slacking a bit lately here, too many other tasks coming up . It may be pulled soon after I road test it. I have a spare and will cycle it in to test it.
Then the other engines.🥱
Dakazman
I like that PCV pipe boot lid prop. :)
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I like that PCV pipe boot lid prop. :)
Bryan if you make one from 3/4” pipe then put a “T” on both ends . Always use a folded rag on the t’s when using. Without the rag the plastic t bends the fiberglass. I haven’t tried pipe wrap or pool floats but they would probably work as well.
One day I might get around to making the hydraulic lift .
Really thinking of that clutch neutral starting switch on the extended shaft you mentioned.
Dakazman
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The carrier is too short by about 1/2". In order for the carrier to work you need to machine an extension that moves the throwout bearing forward by approximately 1/2". I know this because I currently have the same problem. The other solution is to find a longer bearing which todate I have not been able to do. My winter project is to turn an extension. There is an example on one the boards showing the extension but it doesn't give the dimensions.
John Abram
69 S2, 74TCS
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Abramjp48,
The bearing is long enough on the carrier. The bearing has an internal backspaced sleeve. See pics
By reclocking the cross shaft you are able to add that 1/2” needed .
Pic 1- bearing at rest.
Pic 2- bearing at full disengage
Pic 3 - arm position relaxed after reclocking
If you add the extension then the outside arm does not have the throw length .
Dakazman
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I missed posting this pic of the cable pass through anchor. The hole is on the right side motor mount bracket.
Dakazman
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Don’t forget to double nut the cable so the nut won’t back off.
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Thanks,
I did forget but I did safety wire them. 🥴 the cable only came with two but putting on two on each side is much better.
Dakazman
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Oops! I missed the one on the other side of the arm. I’m used to seeing two after the arm.
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Isn’t that going to prevent the cable from moving in the arm by clamping the pivot to it?
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It does look like it will prevent clutch cable abutment from rotating in the “hooks” of the clutch arm.
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It does rotate in the arm the nuts on both sides will also slide through the arm . The nuts only hold the adjustment ball at a certain cable length . The return spring holds it firmly in the rounded carrier section. I elected the safety wire so even if the return spring broke or jammed the the adjuster would not fall out and keep the nuts from any movement.
Elastic stop nuts would work also . The best solution would be to have the cable adjuster at the motor mount and stationary at the arm . Maybe my next mod but for now I’m using the VW cable .
Could also try using other suggestions.
Dakazman
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Thanks for the better shot of it. That looks great.
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D'man, I'm curious.
Did you perchance happen to measure the height of the new clutch prior to installation?
By that, I mean, did you measure a height difference at the bearing contact point for the old and new clutch assemblies?
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It’s shown on the video, and some of still photos. I think the dimension is about 3/4 inches of the release bearing carrier to the face of bell housing. That’s the difference of the new release pins ere made to take up.
Abram put the dimension at about 1/2 “ as he stated. Others said they have about 1/2 throw of pedal
And others cut off the stop flange on housing . All would work.
Is that what you’re asking? Go on instagram for videos.
Dakazman
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I think I know now… the side profile of the old and new clutch was the same and I can measure that for you . I did match the thickness and also another flywheel .
That’s why I just can’t figure this out , the why it happened, the fix I have is working great.
I can’t think of anything else.
Wait I have one other reason for the shortened length 😀 this is far fetched but my crankshaft is from an 843 with a pulley for the front ac , it could be possible that the rear of crankshaft is shorter??
I have two crankshafts laying around, the 821 and another 843 I’ll compare tomorrow.
Dakazman
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I think I found it, thanks Gavin.
The first pic is an 821 crank back end .
The second pic is an 843 crank
You can see that the 821 has something that stops the gearbox from moving about 1/2” forward
The 843 has the cutout with no stop in place .
** I MAY HAVE THAT BACKWARDS THE 843 JUTS OUT 1/4-3/8''. SO WHEN YOU PUT AN 821 FLYWHEEL ON AN 843 CRANK THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.
That may be where the 1/2” story fall occurs. Cranks are the same but that spacer/stop may allow the slop in the clutch pedal.
Comments please:
Dakazman
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Thanks for the pics, Dave,
I don't understand what you mean by this:
You can see that the 821 has something that stops the gearbox from moving about 1/2” forward
The 843 has the cutout with no stop in place .
What is the "something that stops the gearbox from moving about 1/2” forward"?
My understanding is that all 821, 843 & 807 cranks are essentially interchangeable (while ignoring the timing ends are sometimes different).
Similarly, the flywheels and blocks are interchangeable in terms of the dimensions we're interested in.
To me, that means any flywheel bolted to any crank will see the clutch cover bolt face at the same position. Happy to be corrected on any of this.
So, I also don't understand this:
** I MAY HAVE THAT BACKWARDS THE 843 JUTS OUT 1/4-3/8''. SO WHEN YOU PUT AN 821 FLYWHEEL ON AN 843 CRANK THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.
That may be where the 1/2” story fall occurs. Cranks are the same but that spacer/stop may allow the slop in the clutch pedal.
What is the "spacer/stop" you refer to?
My curiosity was peaked because this issue arises from time to time and is in contrast to my own experience. I merely purchased a clutch kit for an R16-TS and bolted it on with no issues.
It seems to me, somehow, some folk appear to be either getting different clutch parts or the stock engine parts are different and we haven't collectively figured it out.
Additionally, I've never seen the pronounced round faced release bearing you're using in any other 807/821 etc. related clutch.
The bearing seems short but I presume RD know what they're doing. Did you ever enquire with them?
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I don't if this is relevant, but I looked in the Dave Bean catalog, which has a lot of Lotus tech drawings.
Although they don't show the Renault engines explicitly, they state the round faced throwout bearing actuates a finger spring pressure plate where as the flat faced throwout bearing actuates a flat faced pressure plate spring.
You have not shown a photo of your pressure plate, at least I have not found it.
If your pressure plate looks like the one in the Lotus s2 parts book, the release baring should have a flat face.
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Gavin,
It seems the rear of the crankshafts are different. I will compare the flywheels and see how they are machined to sit on the crankshafts . That is probably the area of concern where the dimension of the pressure plate sits inside the housing and dimension to release bearing.
Another dimension I would like to know is after the bearing touches the pressure plate to complete disengagement. Which is probably equally important.
I only have one Renault bellhousing so I cannot compare from that side which cannot be changed anyway because the length of the gearbox doesn’t change.
The KIT works fine in an unaltered drivetrain. After we figure this out and only then I can make a statement on original cars . My information was or is the same as yours, at the time, that the cranks are the same.
I have a TC housing but I’m not bringing in something else , but it was attached to a 336 gearbox.
Pfreen,
Posted the pic of the pressure plate and will check drawing.
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That looks correct as far as the throwout bearing and pressure plate. It does not look like the Lotus parts manual though.
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That looks correct as far as the throwout bearing and pressure plate. It does not look like the Lotus parts manual though.
The OEM pressure plate and original flat face throwout are NLA, and have been for a while (I do have an unused set, but it's been promised to someone...)
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Thanks Bryan, I have a good bearing.
Paul,
This pic shows the parts in the manual.
Gavin , you’re correct the crankshafts are the same( the pilot bearing was out which made it look different than the 821 with bearing in . the flywheels are in question . I checked my flywheels both were for the 821 wedge engines the cross flow (843) crank and flywheel are in the car.
Now. I remember comparing it years ago but can’t find the thread just yet.
So anyone out there with a crossflow engine with a 336 have the new clutch kit?
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Dave, a coupla things.
1. That pic of your new pressure plate - are the fingers slightly curved towards the middle and not straight? I'm wondering if that has something to do with the bold round faced release bearing.
2. I wonder what RD might comment as to the issues you've encountered.
3. In the name of science, I dragged out my 336 gearbox for a photo shoot.
This gearbox was attached to an 807 from a R-16TS. Long ago I sold the engine to a needy Europa punter so I don't have a pic of the clutch. The clutch was new when I rebuilt the engine and was of the later type with bare fingers and not the older type with the circular 'pad' on the diaphragm spring (at least, that's how I remember it).
I measured the distance from the face of the release bearing to the forward face of the bell housing where it bolts to the engine.
70.25 mm = 2.77 inches = 2 3/4 inches
Does this narrow anything down?
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Hi again Gavin,
Thanks for answering so soon.
I don’t have an extra s2 housing to check or another 807 flywheel. I’ll pull the gearbox out after I road test it .
I’m going to put finding an answer for awhile, I just want to finish the A/C lines then charge up. Test and close up the firewall. Bleed brakes and install the interior. Than the windscreen .
Dakazman