Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Richard48Y on Monday,December 26, 2022, 01:15:44 AM
-
With a new frame $3K-$4K plus shipping that is out of the question.
My frame is actually pretty good except for a couple of small areas I decided to patch due to rust pitting.
Where I am undecided for how to proceed is the scale that has formed between layers of steel at the forward frame head.
In one area I have cut out the back-side and will patch it. (Pics in the AM)
Without cutting the whole frame head apart I cannot reach this scale physically.
So this seems to require a chemical solution, but which?
Candidates in no particular order.
White vinegar soak. Cheap in quantity, claimed to be effective, probably slow.
CLR. Never tried it, label says removes stains, I have scale.
OSPHO, Never tried it, expensive in quantity, speed and effectiveness?
Vaporust, I use this often and am pretty happy with it. But enough to soak the whole frame head in would get somewhat expensive and I know it is slow or ineffective for heavy scale.
I will use thin blades to break up as much scale as I may reach.
It would be great to just have the chassis dipped but that is an extravagant expense even if I could locate a somewhat local facility doing that work.
So who has done this and what worked best - most inexpensively?
-
The OSPHO won’t remove the rust, just convert it. The vinegar would definitely be slow.
Muriatic acid will remove rust but you need to be careful of the fumes and use the proper safety precautions dealing with an acid.
-
Muriatic acid leaves the metal bare and extremely rust prone. Phosphoric acid would be a better choice as it leaves the surface neutral.
Large flakes of rust would indicate to me that there has been significant metal deterioration. You can buy just the “T” section and replace it as a whole. Might be a better way to go.
-
Pics?
-
Searched the usual suspects without finding any frame heads for sale.
Recommended source?
Mine is not horrible but I never want to have to repair it again so want to remove as much rust as possible before conversion treatment.
I will edit in some pics once I get moving, kind of stiff today.
-
Spyder (https://www.spydercars.co.uk/) seems to make them for repairing Lotus OEM frames (from https://www.spydercars.co.uk/lotus-europa-chassis-wheels/: "Europa repair original chassis new front section shot blast & paint") but they don't list them as parts. It might be worth a call to them.
-
Fifty percent of an entire frame for just the front section. Sounds a bit steep.
-
I think that includes doing the repair and blasting/painting the chassis
-
That includes fitment, blasting and paint. If they sell just the section, it would be considerably cheaper.
-
Spyder (https://www.spydercars.co.uk/) seems to make them for repairing Lotus OEM frames (from https://www.spydercars.co.uk/lotus-europa-chassis-wheels/: "Europa repair original chassis new front section shot blast & paint") but they don't list them as parts. It might be worth a call to them.
Wow, Those minilites in 14", tires are getting harder to find and that might help.
Dakazman
-
Pics as promised.
First four are the main frame head repair.
There are a couple more in the top rail but they are simpler as they are single layer.
The piece I cut out was rusted through.
The repair piece includes a stepped flange and several holes for plug welding.
I was also unhappy about the separation between the layers of factory steel, that will not exist with the new repair.
Pic five is a patch under an engine mount.
The outside reinforcement bows and lets moisture/crud collect behind it.
Pic six is where I will be repairing the original flange near the rear of the Y.
The last pic is a small reinforcement for a crack in the Y flange.
-
Spyder (https://www.spydercars.co.uk/) seems to make them for repairing Lotus OEM frames (from https://www.spydercars.co.uk/lotus-europa-chassis-wheels/: "Europa repair original chassis new front section shot blast & paint") but they don't list them as parts. It might be worth a call to them.
Wow, Those minilites in 14", tires are getting harder to find and that might help.
Dakazman
Minilights are also available in 15” too (https://www.minilitewheels.us/mag-style-sizesj. I think 15” is a bit more common than 14”.
-
Looks like you got it under control Richard!
-
If I buy POR-15, how many quarts to do a Europa chassis?
-
Hi Richard,
When I did my TC chassis years ago, that also had heavy corrosion around the engine mounts. Mine wasn't restricted to the centre of the mount, in fact the worst bit was just in front of the mount and after a few prods it became a hole.
It puzzled me at first but when you think about it, those engine mounts take more than just the engine weight, they also have body loading in corners. I thought at the time that the reinforced area wasn't large enough so you got flexing at the edges of the plate, cue more reinforcement !
Brian
-
About those plates.
Mine seem to be attached to the chassis but not fully.
Loose at one end and the dreaded gap between the reinforcement and the main chassis rail.
I want to remove them to clean that area and treat with rust stop.
Am I looking at a small weld or just rust holding them in place?
-
OK, I determined that the engine mount reinforcement plates are supposed to be spot-welded in place.
Guess I will be drilling out spot welds for the loose plate then clean and reattach it.
A couple of "After" pics, I have done the bottom side frame repairs.
Not being the worlds greatest welder I will stand the frame on end and turn it over as needed for best results.
-
After scratching around looking for an effective vs cost solution to rust removal it looks like I may try electrolysis.
Lots of commercial rust removing products available but getting into every nook and cranny calls for a liquid not jell solution.
Crud Cutter gets the best reviews but is also the most expensive.
Evaporust comes in second, but even at the best price would be over $100.00
Dilute Phosphoric acid might be good but I am unsure how much to dilute it and doubt I would want full strength.
Electrolysis should be very cheap.
Sodium Carbonate, water, a battery or battery charger, sacrificial anode (Scrap metal) and a non-conductive container large enough to submerge the frame head.
The container is the most difficult component.
I am hoping to find a large plastic tote, baby bath, etc.
I have some heavy plastic that I may be able to fold into a wood box if I must.
In theory if I had a large enough container I could do the entire chassis.
Pics once I get it sorted out.
-
Another foray into the web brought up Penetrol.
Not sure what the consensus here might be compared to other products such as POR-15 metal prep or a rust converter?
The Penetrol is relatively cheap and apparently popular with owners of steel boats.
One you-tube video claimed that ex-Olympic steel structures treated with Penetrol still look new eight years later.
Supposed to be three times thinner than water so reaches everywhere, it can be painted over using oil based paints.
Then there is something called Tremclad.........
Yep, I'm probably overthinking all of this.
-
I once did a big derusting op using a large plastic horse trough I got from a farm supply place. Pretty cheap and very strong
-
If dipping is an option then molasses is cheap and effective for rust removal. It work by chelation. The main downside is that it's slow. There are plenty of descriptions on the web.
POR-15 is a moisure cured urethane. It's a good choice when you can't clean all the rust off. I used a similar paint (Eastwood Rust Encapsulator Platinum) on the inside of my frame because there was light surface rust coming through the grey primer.
-
I think molasses has to be done outside due to the smell.
Weather is going to be bad for the next several days.
Electrolysis also has to be done outside due to outgassing.
I am looking for a process that may be done quickly so I do not have to wait several weeks for an opportunity.
-
Today I was gifted five gallons of Evaporust. ;D
Buddy bought it to use on his T-Bucket but wound up going with powder painting so never opened it.
I hope to set up a small plastic fountain pump to circulate it over the area I need to remove rust from.
If it is not satisfactory I will go back the electrolysis effort.
-
I'm a fan of Penetrol and it's been around a long time. I went with it because it's supposed to improve penetration when added to the alkyd-based paint I used for the chassis. It also makes the rather expensive paint go further and largely eliminates brush marks.
I've not use it straight out of the can very much as per the advertised rust 'stabilizer' – I used fish oil which probably works similarly.
A mate of mine does what he calls "Penetrol rebuilds" ;) . . . by which he means that after he bead blasts carb bodies, he gives them a coat of Penetrol. It kinda clogs up the pores of the casting so they don't attract crud and is essentially invisible otherwise.
IMHO, you're on the right track with Evaporust.
From what I gather, it'll actually dissolve the rust. Not sure how to get the sludge out from between the closely fitting steel sheets at the ends of the T section but perhaps it doesn't matter much if the Penetrol gets in.
-
Evaporust, pressure wash, Evaporust, pressure wash again.
Then Penetrol or the 3M Cavity Wax Plus product I bought today.
At some point I will have to accept what I end up with.
-
A final heat cycle to get out as much of the moisture as possible would be a good idea as well.
-
I have a torpedo type heater, that should drive out any moisture.
-
Inquiry sent to Spydercars asking about a replacement frame head.
Seems to be a the most commonly required piece for frame repair, "Group Buy" candidate?
Hoping to hear from them next week.
-
Couple of notes and questions on Spydercars.
I notice they use soda-blast for their restorations.
I wonder what they immediately follow it with, new spray-on gel coat is mentioned.
I also see they offer two chassis, one as original and the other the space-frame.
Original is £500 less expensive.
I wonder which is lighter?
Tried rust removal with a brush.
That seems to really only work where we have access for mechanical assistance.
So it looks like I will be building bucket for dunking.
-
The one you are calling original is an improved frame from the original. I have one from the late ‘70s. The improvements mostly allow better access to places, especially the area around the steering u-joint which is very nice. I don’t know the relative weights but I wouldn’t expect there is much difference.
The tube frame allows their rear wishbone suspension. I don’t know if the newer non-tube frame does, I suspect not. The tube frame is modular where it picks up the rear of the tranny so it supports several different ones such as the NG3.
If you’re interested in an improved rear suspension, you don’t need the tube frame, you can have the Bank’s twin link with any non-tube frame. I don’t have any idea if one is better than the other. I know the Banks mimics the original geometry.
Back when I got my frame, I got it from Dave Bean. It would be worth a call to see if they have any.
In design, the Banks (Lotus Supplies) frame is very similar extra to the non-tube Spyder frame in that it gives better access to certain areas.
-
I intend to keep my (Or at least most of) original chassis and suspension.
I want to drive the car San Jose BMC refused to sell me when I was young, with the in-period TS engine upgrade.
-
Graphic below shows the difference, right out of the parts manuals.
-
What do those turned up ends do on an S2? The upper suspension points are below the ears. Cradle the body somehow?
-
Yeah, I think it was silly but I can't think of another reason to have them.
-
It would help to strengthen the upper link thru-bolt to frame bosses. It gives lateral support due to the vertical lip, which resists twisting.
-
What do those turned up ends do on an S2? The upper suspension points are below the ears. Cradle the body somehow?
Probably, but you'd think the body isn't going anywhere laterally given it's 'hugging' the central backbone.
Bolts go through the body bobbins and those ears and they're easily accessible separately via the wheel well. I don't know where the bolt holes are on the TC but presumably it's above the suspension pivot bosses and a little more tricky to access?
Another explanation might be to stop the cat pushing your coffee off the end of the T.
-
From Spydercars,
Yes, we could manufacture and supply a front suspension bulkhead.
These are the later spec where the damper mounts between the front wishbone spindle bushes.
The cost would be £1000 plus carriage.
You would also need 4 x wishbone spindles @£17.55 each.
Lead time would be around 4 weeks from receipt of £500 deposit.
I have not asked about a group buy yet.
That would certainly increase the lead time.
But if the fixture is already out and set up doing a few should be faster than setting up each time.
In my case the frame head is very repairable but not ideal so I have to think about this. :confused:
At least these would be simple to ship.
-
Not satisfied with how slowly Evaporust works.
So today I bought a big plastic tub and sodium carbonate to try electrolysis.
Freezing tonight so it is tomorrows project.
-
Here is my frame head getting an electrolysis bath.
Muck floats to the top almost immediately.
Probably old dirt, oil, and remnants of Evaporust.
I am using a 200A "Dumb" battery charger in "Boost" mode.
Water gets dirty pretty fast, not sure how long to run such a large part and it is already hard to see it.
-
That looks interesting! Let us know how it turns out.
-
Had to go this way.
Enough of any other product would be exorbitant.
Only large expense here was the plastic tub that I will reuse.
-
So you will do this then repair as you started earlier?
-
Not certain yet.
I hope so as the new frame T from Spydercars is still $1,500.
I have to finish this process and take a hard look at it.
I could make my own frame T but that would delay me for months as it is just too cold to use outside equipment while relearning how to use a metal brake.
Turned the process off after a couple of hours.
I cannot see anything in the dark.
Maybe the muck will settle overnight so that I may get a good look.
Nice thing about this is that I can just run it longer if I am not satisfied.
-
I wonder what Send cut send would charge for the pieces. Somewhere on the interwebs there were pdf's of the chassis (Found them: http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/misc/Lotus%20europa%20chassis%20drawing.pdf (http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/misc/Lotus%20europa%20chassis%20drawing.pdf) ).
I think send cut send can bend them as well as cut them. It might save you some time.
-
That looks interesting! Let us know how it turns out.
I may go down this road for the fuel tanks, if I can find a 12v power supply (I have some 30-40A units I use in my ham radio shack...) that can put out the current...still futzing over how to take care of the flash rust...
-
If I recall my experience doing the electrolysis, some wire-brushing afterward is helpful, but it sure removes lots of corrosion.
-
Electrolysis keeps removing more dreck, a layer forms on top of the water.
I have emptied and refilled the tub for a second go.
Not a quick process but also not laborious.
I did find Penetrol at Lowes.
Hoping to be able to decide how I am proceeding soon.
-
After two days there is noticeable rust removal but still not sufficient.
I had to remove the wire mesh anode I had been using as it has mostly disintegrated.
I found some old expanded metal to replace it but hope to buy more and form it up for a better surrounding anode.
It seems the process is somewhat directional and also affected by distance.
-
I think lots of surface area for your anode is good. I recall using large steel cans.
-
I found some old expanded metal to replace it but hope to buy more and form it up for a better surrounding anode.
It seems the process is somewhat directional and also affected by distance.
Now I'll start off by saying I've not used this method to clean rusty items myself. For DIY I prefer mechanical/sand blastbut I have used inhibited chemicals (HCl/stannous chloride) for smaller parts that you can soak overnight. So bear that in mind with the next comments...
Basically, "Anodes Corrode", it's a downside but I suppose you could use a more corrosion resistant metal and multiple anodes ?
The reaction is dependent on current density, basically the closer the anode/cathode are the better. Likewise current and relative surface areas will play a part. The problem with this is that you've got a very large cathode area and some of it is "hidden" because you're trying to clean an internal surface.
The impression I get from the photo is that you've got a single anode at one side of the tank ? One way of improving it would be to run the anode around the tank diameter and make a couple of connections, as long as it doesn't short against the chassis, it will be fine. That gives a more even current distribution around the chassis and should help with the directionality of the process.
-
With the wire mesh I had placed it under to face the main surface and around the edges.
Lots of visible action but the wire mesh was too fine and disintegrated.
My original thought for mesh was that it would provide more actual surface area than a metal sheet.
Currently still running but using some much heavier expanded metal under.
I see less bubbling but the reaction is ongoing.
What I am not satisfied with is the removal of heavy scale between layers and inside the box section.
Perhaps acid would get to that in a timely manner?
In any case the pitting, thinning, and gaps, have convinced me to try to just replace the T section.
I will use this process again on smaller parts but have to consider it a fail for closed in areas.
Maybe it would succeed eventually?
-
Firstly, excuse me cutting up your original post, it's just so I keep a logical order.....
With the wire mesh I had placed it under to face the main surface and around the edges. Lots of visible action but the wire mesh was too fine and disintegrated. My original thought for mesh was that it would provide more actual surface area than a metal sheet. Currently still running but using some much heavier expanded metal under. I see less bubbling but the reaction is ongoing.
Sounds about right, I couldn't tell from the photo. Basically I'd want to space it as close as possible and all around the surface I wanted to clean. For something like that I'd expect to do it in several stages, moving the anode to the bit I wanted to attack. I agree, expanded metal will give a larger surface area although I think with more area your current density will drop for a given input. The other snag is that the expanded area gives more opportunities for it to corrode ! Maybe try something like copper or stainless sheet ? I don't know, that's a pure stab in the dark.
What I am not satisfied with is the removal of heavy scale between layers and inside the box section.
Perhaps acid would get to that in a timely manner?
Personally I doubt it will remove scale between two layers of a steel sandwich if that's what you're hoping. It'll clean up the outsides great but access for electrolyte down the crevice will be poor and that's what you'll need to remove scale. It could do it but without some brushing/circulation it'll take ages.
The same circulation problem between layers applies for acid as well, in fact I can't think of a good way of ensuring it's clear. Acid would be worse because you'd have to make double sure you'd got everything out and that would be difficult.
The box section has similar problems of getting the anodes in the best place and although it will work you'll have the outsides sparkly clean before the insides get moving. I think you've started with the hardest possible part of the car to do !
In any case the pitting, thinning, and gaps, have convinced me to try to just replace the T section. I will use this process again on smaller parts but have to consider it a fail for closed in areas. Maybe it would succeed eventually?
I'd second that, if there's any significant rusting then I give up trying to clean & paint, I simply cut out metal and replace with new.
There was light surface rust inside the crossmember when I repaired my chassis and all I did was clean as much as possible then cover the area with waxoyl, a non-drying waxy underseal, to keep air/moisture away. Providing it doesn't get washed off with road spray (as it would on the uprights/outer surface for example) it's done a great job in arresting corrosion. Every now and then when I think about it I'll spray a bit more through the access holes but that's probably overkill/wasteful.
But even if you do end up repairing/replacing the front section, the big positive is that you've sorted out the process and have something that will be excellent for cleaning things like the vertical links and suspension parts. Probably good for calipers as well ?
Brian
-
Richard,
I did a quick CAD conversion of the files I linked, and fed them into Send Cut Send's website. They're quoting roughly $300 for cutting and bending, but you would still need to weld the pieces up, as well as turn the pins/bushings for the suspension pickups. I don't know if this helps, but it's an option for you and other Europa owners.
-
:huh: NEVER EVER use stainless for electrolysis!!!!!!!!
I forgot the name of the FATAL gases created. :holdurbreath:
Got pics from Spydercars this morning.
As soon as I get the invoice the new frame head will be purchased.
It is their upgraded design which appears stronger and less prone to rusting from the inside out.
It also appears to make access to the steering u-joint much simpler.
-
Overlapping post.
$300.00 plus a little turning and welding is VERY good!
I have already committed to the Spydercars frame head, partially in the interest of speed.
But I think I will follow up on your lead too. I have a lathe and welding equipment.
I know these are needed fairly often and Spydercars does not want to make them a standard item.
I can cut up my old frame head if needed to get a clear understanding of the assembly order.
I expect that adding some seam seal along the way would also help durability.
-
Got pics from Spydercars this morning.
As soon as I get the invoice the new frame head will be purchased.
It is their upgraded design which appears stronger and less prone to rusting from the inside out.
It also appears to make access to the steering u-joint much simpler.
That is the ‘T’ design used in my early Spyder frame that I’ve tried to describe elsewhere. As you noted, it is a huge improvement over the original design for the reasons you stated. I suppose it’s not part of their catalog because it might cut into sales of their complete frames.
I have no real experience in fabricating, especially sheet metal fabrication, but it seems like something that could copied.
-
Yes, but scruples.
Why I never made a lot in retail business, always trying too hard to be fair to the customer. :headbanger:
I am looking into replicating the original style, the on-line metal shops price is too good to compete with for cutting and bending. I have the tools to complete assembly.
-
I forgot the name of the FATAL gases created. :holdurbreath:
From what I remember it's Hexavalent Chromium, or at least that's what the site safety guys were warning about when welding inside stainless vessels.
-
Yes, that is it.
Apparently pretty nasty stuff, someone mentioned it being used as weapons gas.
-
I tidied up the CAD files and uploaded them to Send Cut Send. The total came to $350.71, but they can't do all the bends. The "main" piece of the crossmember exceeds their maximum bend length. If you had access to a 48" box and pan break that could handle 16 ga steel, then it should work just fine. If anyone wants the DXF files, let me know via PM. Also, I can't guarantee the dimensions are 100% as I didn't create the original drawing/pdf.
-
I have outdoor* access to an 8' brake.
I also have an S2 frame head to check dimensions on.
Wondering if Send Cut Send would be any cheaper for about three sets?
That is probably about all the immediate market would be viable for.
*A person could drown in this drought, snow and rain again!
-
Removed the frame from the dunk for the last time today.
Yes, more rust was removed, but it appears that to be truly effective on the inside I would have to fabricate a rather intricate system of anodes.
Without that electrolysis remains very slow if it is doing anything at all.
There are separations between layers of the steel due to heavy scale, similar to frost heaves.
This is mostly inside and there is really no practical way to repair it.
Big disappointment as another owner of several Europa's was impressed with how sound it appeared to be when he looked at it.
The 'rule of rust' remains, it is always 3X what you can see. :headbanger:
I am going to go ahead and complete the T repairs as a practice exercise.
But there is no doubt I am replacing it.