Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: califkid_66 on Monday,August 22, 2022, 10:59:33 AM
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Well I got a surprise today
While driving my Europa this morning my ampmeter was showing 30 amps +my alternator was hot
So I thought ok needs adjustment I wanted to keep my Europa as original as can be so when I had replaced my voltage regulator I bought what I believed to be a mechanical one from a 70s car same shape same size same hole and same wiring
Well I opened it up and this is what I found
So I can’t do nothing with this so I am officially out of service until I find something to replace this
Ps I always keep my old parts the new one is the one with the black cover
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I can't speak to your voltage regulator but I don't think there is an "original design" replacement for some things unless you find a pack rat who still has some NOS bits. For example, the voltage stabilizer behind your dash is replaced by a similar looking can with a solid state circuit inside. Your voltage regulator may be in a similar situation.
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These guys have some old looking stuff: https://www.holden.co.uk/displayproductsByMake.asp?carMakeCode=L4&carMake=Lotus&pageno=1
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I’m not a pack rat but I just salvaged a bunch of parts . One looks newish.
Is this what you want?
Pay for shipping and their yours. Pm me!
Dakazman
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Why not carefully clean and adjust the old one?
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Thank you Dakazman really appreciate your offer but my problem is solved
I had ordered an solid state one from rd That I gave to my friend but he’s not using it so I’m just going to put it on
And Jb the reason I changed the old one was the point were worn out but I still
Tried to put it on passed a 600 grit sandpaper but it doesn’t make the blue sparks like it did
I suspect something in the electronics is wrong maybe a diode cause when all connected I push on the points and there’s no reaction no sparks nothing on the multimeter
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Abrasive papers leave grit behind which holds the points from closing. Get some 1000 grade abrasive and give it another clean. Then finish with clean white paper. Repeatedly use new clean sections of the paper until it pulls through and comes out completely clean.
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I remember reading about some of the electronic stabilizers having a grounding/shorting problem where the case would short to a component or maybe the edge of the PCB. Might check on that.
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Well being the type of person who like to fix stuff!! and having had success in rebuilding my ampmeter
I decided to try my luck at restoring my voltage regulator so I decided to take it all apart and clean and verify every part and wiring had to do some reading on diodes 2 of them in parallel tested both supposed to be anode and cathode power supposed to travel one way tested the diodes power went both ways so they are both not doing what they’re suppose to do but what I didn’t get is if the power goes through it should have worked when the points were closed it should have sent power to the exciter in the alternator but didn’t and I cleaned the point really good so I suspect bad wiring so the plan is clean up rewire clean and reweld every connection it might take a while but it’s ok and get new diodes I’ll just bring them to the electronic store to get equivalents
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I don't see diodes in any of your pictures. If it's the close up of two components (4105.jpg) that's a capacitor (disc) and resistor (maybe brown-orange-black-gold = 13 ohm 5% tolerance).
Sorry if this is obvious to you, and the diodes are hidden from view.
Resistor colour code calculator:
https://www.digikey.ca/en/resources/conversion-calculators/conversion-calculator-resistor-color-code
Gary
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+1 on no diodes. The resistor “throttles” current flow and the capacitor damps voltage spikes with the opening and closing of the points. This reduces EMF and extends point life.
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My bad !! I really thought they were diodes thanks for the info that was all the electronics that were in there nothing else hiding I was going to bring them to the electronics store I would have looked pretty stupid !! Now I have to read up on resistors and capacitors!! But anyway it looked pretty simple so I’m gonna have a go at it just for fun thanks for helping me
For the resistor I have 22 red red black gold so it should be good
The capacitor I have 3.1 but not sure of the colours looks like gold a black stripe and yellow
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Old caps are frequently the cause of old electrics going bad. So replacing those if you can determine the values could do the trick. Anyone else with an unmounted regulator who could read off any capacitor markings?
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I went looking for a schematic of the VS. Didn't find that, but found a troubleshooting guide.
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Aren't the diodes built into the alternator?
Also the troubleshooting guide appears to be for the voltage stabilizer for the dash instruments.
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Well heck. I read he had problems with the ammeter, and went down a rabbit hole of dash-related stuff. Never mind! Carry On.
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Ken, been there, done that.
For those wanting a reference on vintage British electrical systems, I recommend this book.
"Classic British Car Electrical Systems" by Rick Astley
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I went looking for a schematic of the VS. Didn't find that, but found a troubleshooting guide.
I thought we were talking about the voltage regulator.
dakazman
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So, Rickrolling is the answer to British electrics? >:D
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Hey Ken, never heard of Rickrolling, had to look it up. Didn't try it.
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Sorry to inflict a bit of internet history on you. I was just amazed two such different people would have the same name. Plus, it was a silly bit of internet history.
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Thanks for the troubleshooting guide Ken
Little update I checked my local Napa store and they had a voltage regulator so I bought it and when I got home first thing I did was opened it up and it wasn’t an electronic one but mechanical I figured since it’s new and mechanical I could see the resistance and capacitor to get for my old vr but again to my surprise there no resistance or capacitor it’s wired direct you can see from the pictures so now I’m a bit confused should I use it as is should I ad a resistance and capacitor it is usually used on 70’s Chrysler did they have the resistance and capacitor in the alternator or something in between
Or is it ok without them
One more thing what is the purpose of the two bars under the vr last picture
Thanks again!
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Ok now this is getting ridiculous I installed the voltage regulator did not put the cover on started the engine and the ampmeter was showing +30 amps so I figured it’s not adjusted so I adjusted it the ampmeter read ok when I reved up it went to 10+ amps but then there was smoke coming out the back so I stopped everything looks like it’s coming from the two rods under the box
I am stumped I unplugged everything I have no idea what’s going on so I’m just gonna walk out of the garage and take a breather
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Used the multimeter to go around the circuit and noticed that the bracket that bolts to the fibreglass had twelve volts in it so putting a ground on that created a short but that how the old vr was wired
I removed the ground from the vr
Started the car 12 v power going in the vr 12 v out going to exiter no ground no smoke stays on
But doesn’t buzz like supposed to stays on no movement at the points I manually pressed on top to simulate when battery is charged and magnet pulls points apart then checked the voltage going in 12v going to exiter nothing witch is supposed to be
Needs adjustments but doesn’t seem to want to let go
Then I decided to put the electronic one I had before without the ground and seems to work ok without the ground on the bracket the only thing is power going in 12v going out to exiter varies from 8v to 12 v witch doesn’t make sense to me should be on or off so I wanted to know if at 8v the alternator was generating power so I removed the battery terminal and the engine died the alternator felt hot
I put the ground back on electronic one always charging even when battery is full stays at 12v on exiter side and engine keeps running when I remove the bat terminal so it’s not doing it’s job
The new vr seems to have burnt underneath
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Have you tried to check the voltage across the battery terminals with the car running. If the alternator and VR are functioning properly, the VR should maintain battery voltage around 14.2 volts. This is per Rick Astley's book. If it's higher, it could be the cause of the hot alternator
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Yes I was checking the battery neg pos with engine on waiting to see when the alternator would turn on and to see when it would turn off like I wrote before I pressed on it to turn it off with light on to lower the battery so it would turn on but it didn’t I was below 12 volts didn’t turn on then I turned it on manually and let it run in the 13 v lights off the voltage regulator never turned off always had power at the exiter even though the battery was charged
I would like to know what is the turn on voltage and turn off voltage cause it doesn’t seem to want to do either
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According to Astley's book, the VR should cycle the field windings to ground between 13V (ON) and 14.2V (OFF).
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Thanks I’m gonna try to see if I can adjust it with these parameters
One little question I’m looking all over can’t find the answer what are those two insulated wires under the voltage regulator I’m trying to figure out if they could be the source of my problems
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Voltmeters are not set by looking at an ammeter. You set them to the specified voltage and that’s it. Metal covers affect the magnetic field of the regulator and, if I remember correctly, it will read about a half volt high with the cover off.
Now to your troubles. First, is the rotor wiring in your alternator shorted out? If it is internally shorted to ground, then you will indeed fry regulators.
Second are you hooking up the regulator correctly? Are the terminals clearly marked? Some regulators control the power side of rotor windings (rotor windings ground inside the alt), some the negative side (rotor windings powered from the alt and the regulator the negative side). So check the original application of the regulator you bought and make sure it matches the rotor wiring of the Renault alt.
The long tubes under the regulator are high-current resistors.
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I think you are confusing generators which also have current regulators as well as voltage regulators (and cut off relays).
Voltage regulators have normally closed points. The points are held closed by spring tension. As the voltage rises, the magnetic field increases and, at a certain set point, it pulls the points open. This cuts the power to the rotor windings, the alternator stops charging, the voltage falls, the magnetic field in the regulator falls, and the points close starting the cycle again. This happens so rapidly that the alternator maintains a steady output.
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Hi Jb
My original vr when operating was making a busing sound and you could see a blue spark it was cycling very fast when battery was full the magnet pulled the points apart when power was low the magnet would let go the points and they would cycle again
Now 1 I am not trying to adjust my regulator with my ammeter I just noticed that it was going to 30+ amps witch it never did before
2 I know the difference between an alternator and a generator
3 I was using a multimeter to see how many volts my alternator was producing and trying to adjust it
4 the new vr that I used as ignition on one side and the field on the other side to my knowledge that would be positive and so should be the field
On the cover of that regulator there’s a warning it says do not short any terminals with negatives I did ground the box big mistake smoke came from under so I disconnected it afterwards I connected only the ignition and the field I used the multimeter to check the box it had 12 volts positive I put my black lead on batt negative and the red on the box and had 12v
Now I’m trying to adjust it but since I shorted the wiring under it doesn’t work
My alternator seems to be ok when there is power to the field it produces power if no power to the field no power
The only way the new vr works is if I move the point manually I really screwed it up !
Thanks for taking the time to help me out
Below is the instructions I got with the vr and it says for alternator
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Ok, the regulator is toast most likely. If shorted to ground, it would pass way too much current and toast points/wiring/resistors. So you are going to have to get another one.
The wiring instructions are pretty clear but you have to remember this regulator was designed to be mounted to a metal body so you need to run a ground wire from a mounting screw to the chassis/engine/battery.
If your ammeter shows high readings but the voltage across the battery is under 15.2v, then something else is drawing current and causing a high reading (sticking window switch, etc).
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One thing the the ammeter was on the positive side if there would be something draining the power it would go to negative side
If that vr is supposed to be bolted to metal then it would have been grounded exactly the way I installed it so there’s only two possibilities
Either the vr was defective from the start or I have a electrical problem in the charging circuit
Funny thing is the reason I decided to get another vr is because my ammeter was showing 30+ amps
But never did before it was always going towards the negative before especially when the fan went on and the new vr does the same goes up to 30+ amp I’m hoping that’s what happens when they go bad and stay on and sends power to the field
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A voltage regulator doesn’t see amps. If the voltage across the battery is correct, it’s working as per design and that’s it.
+30 could be due to: incorrect wiring, bad cell in the battery, fault in things powered off the starter solenoid.
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I’m gonna go through the whole electrical system I got caught in a rainstorm and the next day the problem started I don’t want to fry another vr
Also I’m going to test the new vr that fried to figure out why the part that’s supposed to be negative was positive
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I know I’m getting annoying with this but I tested the three vr that I have
The original that I took out cause the points were used up the electronic one and the new mechanical one
I put the ground wire from the frame to the bolt holding the vr one at a time
Not connecting ignition tab nor exiter screw
Then I used my multimeter on volts put the red positive lead on the positive of the battery then I put the negative lead on the vr ground wire had 12 volts reading so that’s normal then I put the negative lead on the ignition tab I had 12 volts that means that the ignition tab where I’m supposed to send 12 volts is grounded and is not supposed to be
The electronic one and the new mechanical one were both ground at ignition tab
I tested the original vr the same way and when I touched the ignition tab with the negative lead there was 0 volts
So I’m thinking my electronic one shorted because of heavy rain and the new one was defective I’m waiting on some other vr I will do the same test on them I did test the alternator and there’s no short all the readings are good
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A digital multimeter can read full volts in quite a few surprising situations. Switch your meter to ohms.
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I will when I come back home next week by that time I will have received my spal fan and some vr
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I think I know why my vr went up in smoke I was looking at the pictures
Of the back of the vr in the first picture is what I ordered if you look at the resistor from ignition tab to field tab it is isolated from the box it is positive the box is negative ground
But when you look at the one I recieved the ignition tab resistor goes to the field but the other resistor is connected directly to the box at one end witch is negative and to the field at the other end so if I put positive into ignition then It’s creating a short in other words I’m sending positive on something that is grounded creating a short look at the pictures the second box doesn’t make sense to me
The wiring diagram shows how to wire it ignition positive field positive to alternator ground box to frame everything done according to diagram so my guess is that’s not the regulator I ordered it’s not like the one in the first picture the one in the first picture would have worked