Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Bryan Boyle on Wednesday,August 17, 2022, 03:40:42 PM
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Well...18 bolts later (the split washers under the bolt heads were flattened...and took them off with a nutdriver!), the pan's off. The cork gasket crumbled, and the front and rear seals were held in by a copious amount of RTV. The dished areas in the pan flange were filled with oil...thinking this was the major cause of all the mess. Interesting to note that neither the back of the front crank pulley nor the back of the flywheel have any oil on them, so, going to leave those seals alone for now.
Shot a couple of photos below. Just dry fit the side gaskets to see how they look; they're the cork/butyl impregnated ones RD sells.
position question: the half-round seals...to the outside of the ridge in the pan where they locate, or to the inside? Wasn't clear, since they stayed in the block when I pulled the pan down...
Paint question: the bluish grey Ford color doesn't seem to be around anymore...medium grey acceptable (I know...trivial question, but I'm going to paint the pan before I put it back up...)?
Now, process question: seal the new gaskets to the pan first (which would let me get the height of the front and rear cork seals nipped properly) then seal the block side of the cork (paying attention to the joint between the half round cork and the flat pan gaskets) and offer up, or some other way? I did the former for the VCG, and it worked a treat and still no leaks...but thought I'd ask.
Oh, and planning to use flat AN360s and star washers under the bolt heads when I put all back together. Good idea or pick up a new bag of splits? Thinking that having the flat washer would provide a better clamping force and the star washer would keep it tight...Just a thought.
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Someone has mentioned the correct paint color before. So I think it's out there.
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I remembered some more details from when I changed my gaskets. The rails go on the block first, then the cork semi-circular seals go next.
I would use some sort of lock washers since very little torque is required for holding the pan on so that the gaskets don't get squished out. I don't have a preference between star or split but I would use them without a flat washer but I doubt it makes a lot of difference if you really like to use flat washers under your lock washers.
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I remembered some more details from when I changed my gaskets. The rails go on the block first, then the cork semi-circular seals go next.
I would use some sort of lock washers since very little torque is required for holding the pan on so that the gaskets don't get squished out. I don't have a preference between star or split but I would use them without a flat washer but I doubt it makes a lot of difference if you really like to use flat washers under your lock washers.
Was reading Wilkins tonight (what a way to relax, right?) and his instructions make sense if the block is upside down on a stand while assembling...I'm upside down under the car working over my head looking up. I'm going to dry fit the half moons (Wilkins' puts the smaller front seal in the block and seats it in a bed of RTV (page 133) just to see if it needs trimming (don't think so...but will find out), and though I've a 6-bolt engine, he shows the rear seal in the pan just proud (thinking the thickness of the liner side seals) of the pan flange. Maybe I'm overthinking this...but don't want to have to do this again anytime soon. Mulling over whether I set the gaskets in place on the block with a reasonable bead of black RTV and clamp with the pan to set up, then pull down and seal the pan to gasket the next day, or use RTV for the half moons to block and form-a-gasket for the pan to the gasket...or...???
Old A&P training: use flat to even out the clamping pressure, stars to lock the bolt. Know it doesn't make a big diff on low-torque fittings like the #4 bolts holding the pan on...but what I'm used to doing. Picked up a box of the 1/4x20 1/2" bolts to put the pan back up...new bolts, washers, stars, gaskets...how hard could it be?
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The end cork gaskets that fit over the main caps shouldn't need trimming (I thought I remember doing that with my old Spridget race car). My engine was in the car when I did mine too. I glued the rail gaskets on first then put goo in the place where the the end corks go and pushed them on. They will cover a portion of the rail gaskets so be a bit generous with the goo there. Then a smear of more goo over the all the gaskets and then offered up the pan and screwed it in place.
I would let all the goo set with the pan in place. I don't think your plan is a problem and thinking about it, there may be an advantage in that it would be harder to squish the gaskets from over tightening the pan bolts. Just when you bolt up the pan while the RTV sets, make sure you've got it as tight as it needs. On thinking about it - it's an interesting approach but I've never done anything like that before so I'd be hesitant but if you've done it like that or was instructed to do that, I wouldn't argue.
You might want some longer 1/4-20s to start the pan with. Just a thought.
I used to always put a flat washer under a lock washer till a buddy of mine had a problem with some machinery that was shaking itself apart. He said split lock washers dug into the metal and gave out. Nylon lock nuts too. I figured then that maybe the split lock washers really worked by digging into the piece and the bolt head. I don't know that for a fact but the experience my friend had made an impression. Actually I try not to use lock washers at all but I know there isn't much of an alternative unless you want to drill the heads of all those bolts and lock wire it. That is actually something I would contemplate!
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Whether you attach everything to the pan or the block of is a matter of convenience. With the engine upside down, it’s simplest to fit to the block. In car, the other way round. I general glue everything in place with a dab of sealer in the corners and then add a smear of sealer to the exposed side.
Remember cork gaskets can easily be cut too short. They should be cut a little long so they compress and make a better seal. Silicone sealer, as long as it is oil proof is ok but NOT TOO Much. If when it is all together, a small amount oozes out (not enough to form beads or lumps) that is about right. Makes sure you give it at least 24 hours to set before exposing the sealer to oil.
Torque is low on pan bolts with cork gaskets. Split lock washers (new) would probably work better.
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For the oil pan and valve cover, I use ultra black oil resistant silicone sealant and I use a low torque range torque wrench.
After applying sealant, I then torque to like 12 inch pounds and leave it for an hour. Then creep up on the 6-8 foot-lb specified torque. If you over squeeze the gasket, you will have to do it all over again.
You can try without the torque wrench, but is difficult to have the discipline.
After I got the torque wrench, have never had an oil pan or valve cover leak.
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***DELETIA****
... drill the heads of all those bolts and lock wire it. That is actually something I would contemplate!
Have one of these at the airport...nah...that's going too far...;)
https://aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?id=6061B&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
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FWIW...found a grey close enough (hey, it's not a concours restoration...but, my SOP is if you take something off...clean it up, paint it, and replace fasteners if you can)...so, again, sanded the pan, spit prime, and a couple coats of hi temp enamel in medium grey to finish. I'm good with it. At least SOMETHING is looking better (even as I age a day at a time...lol...beats the alternative...)
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So my oil pan reassembly is sometime in the future but I'm in the process of cleaning and painting it. Lets say that I have pan gasket sealed and torqued correctly. I'm at the point of installing the engine/tranny unit to the car. The engine is now sitting on a dolly with the full weight of the engine on the pan gasket. Is all of the care in torqueing the pan bolts for naught with the gasket now possibly over compressed by the engine weight or am I overthinking this again?
Second concern. The stock "baffle" seems to be inadequate. I've lost oil pressure in long right hand turns so many times that I've driven my TCS. While the pan is off, I will probably upgrade the baffle system.
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So my oil pan reassembly is sometime in the future but I'm in the process of cleaning and painting it. Lets say that I have pan gasket sealed and torqued correctly. I'm at the point of installing the engine/tranny unit to the car. The engine is now sitting on a dolly with the full weight of the engine on the pan gasket. Is all of the care in torqueing the pan bolts for naught with the gasket now possibly over compressed by the engine weight or am I overthinking this again?
Second concern. The stock "baffle" seems to be inadequate. I've lost oil pressure in long right hand turns so many times that I've driven my TCS. While the pan is off, I will probably upgrade the baffle system.
You're as bad as I am Joji...in the overthinking department. I'd put an old tire off the rim on the dolly...put the engine on that...the tire will compress and take the weight...just a thought...
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Permatex has a bunch of YouTube videos you might find interesting. This one explains how to choose which formulation to use for your application. It also shows that they recommend their gasket makers as the gasket for an oil pan (or oil pan type application). I didn’t do that when I recently replaced my oil pan gasket but I think I’ll consider it if there is a next time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qdykc8nMzA
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Permatex has a bunch of YouTube videos you might find interesting. This one explains how to choose which formulation to use for your application. It also shows that they recommend their gasket makers as the gasket for an oil pan (or oil pan type application). I didn’t do that when I recently replaced my oil pan gasket but I think I’ll consider it if there is a next time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qdykc8nMzA
Thinking outside the box...seems there are 'tabs' at the end of the rail gaskets...which nicely fit into the channel that the half moons go into, and seem that the half moons fit down (up?) onto them to compress seal. so...thinking after some extensive reading (I'd rather be accused of overthinking than missing something...) a 2-step process. RTV is great for sealing, not so much for 'gluing' especially in the upside down world I'm working in...so...use #2 form-a-gasket (which is sticky) for the block side and place the cork gaskets (not the half-moons) into place and seat with the oil pan (no sealer on the pan side yet) lightly bolted up into the block. Let mostly set up, pull down pan, ultra black in the half moon block channels and onto the exposed cork side rails, especially in the corners a bit, place the half moons in place, and apply a proper bead of ultra to the pan, and the exposed side of the half moons, offer up and smoothly bolt up pan (but not torque yet), check for squish out, let sit for an hour, then torque to 6-8 ft-lbs.
Overcomplicating things?
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Did I remember you said you were an airplane mechanic? Those guys go round and round over what kind of torque wrench is best (which for an airplane might be justified).
I don't see anything wrong with that plan but it seems overly baroque. I think oil resistant RTV (I finally found out what RTV stands for in that video!) is all you need. I think I would put goop on the engine side of the cork end pieces and put them in place when you compress everything the first time - the idea being that the RTV under the gasket and under the cork end pieces would squish together forming a single contiguous seal. Then when you go for final assy., goop the underside (you are under the car) and torque the pan.
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Did I remember you said you were an airplane mechanic? Those guys go round and round over what kind of torque wrench is best (which for an airplane might be justified).
Snap-on torque wrenches are all I use (and regularly get calibrated) when wrenching airframes. Yeah, they cost one kidney and right big toe..but...that's all the chief wrench would allow in the shop (since he was the inspector...I was just a lowly journeyman mechanic...).
I don't see anything wrong with that plan but it seems overly baroque. I think oil resistant RTV (I finally found out what RTV stands for in that video!) is all you need. I think I would put goop on the engine side of the cork end pieces and put them in place when you compress everything the first time - the idea being that the RTV under the gasket and under the cork end pieces would squish together forming a single contiguous seal. Then when you go for final assy., goop the underside (you are under the car) and torque the pan.
Room Temperature Vulcanizing. Will pick up a tube of the Ultra Black and get to work on it later.
I tend to overthink everything. I did note that the end pieces are cut to proper length to just put it all together to allow for compressing, no trimming necessary. Think your method will work the best...time to get underneath later, clean off the flange (hard plastic permatex scraper and some lacquer thinner on a rag), and start putting together. Should look nice with new bolts and freshly painted pan when I get done. As long as the bitc* doesn't leak when I'm done...;) (Would be easier if it was out of the car upside down on a stand, but it is what it is...)
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The guys I was talking about went on at length about the superiority of beam type wrenches over click type. I don't dispute any of their arguments but every engine I've ever built, every engine I've ever known of being built by a buddy, and every engine I've ever seen being built were built with click type wrenches. They may not be dead nuts but they are certainly close enough!
I was intrigued by the electronic torque wrenches because they seem to have a lot of the benefits of both types but I don't need a new torque wrench.
As I believe you've said before, better to overthink than under think!
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The best torque wrench is the one that is regularly calibrated and its useable range covers the intended application. I have seen both beam and click type that were off. One engine job (not by me, thank goodness) dropped a rod not long after and the beam type torque wrench tested out at 15% low.
With regards to "over compressing" an oil pan gasket buy supporting an engine on its oil pan, there is enough surface area to the gasket that it is not an issue.
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Done. Pretty sure it would be easier if the lump was out, on a stand, and upside down, rather than me being under the car working over my face. All tightened down in two stages...little push-out of ultra black...then snugged up to 6 ft/lbs. Will check tightness tomorrow. What a messy/achy job.
Next up...manifold, cross pipe and muffler system. New studs in the head, fresh brass nuts, new washers, new metal/fiber gaskets. Then going to run in place for a while to see if there's any weeps/leaks. If there is...well, the lump is coming out and go though the whole thing top and bottom. This was just to buy me some time.
Thanks for all the suggestions...ended up going with ultra black on the block and half-moon channels smoothed out, cork gaskets layed on it while still sticky, a smooth layer of ultra black on the pan flange and front/rear seal areas, with a dab in the corners on the blockwhere the half moons meet the flange...letting it sit overnight, filled with 4.5 US Quarts of VR-1 20w-50 oil),over night...tomorrow or saturday...attack the exhaust so I can start her up.
It's wine-o-clock somewhere, right?
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Congratulations on completing the installation of your oil pan! :beerchug:
What are the brass bolts for? Did you mean brass nuts?
At 8:22pm, it’s definitely wine-o-clock in all of eastern US! 🍷
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Congratulations on completing the installation of your oil pan! :beerchug:
What are the brass bolts for? Did you mean brass nuts?
At 8:22pm, it’s definitely wine-o-clock in all of eastern US! 🍷
duh. Long day upside down under the beast.
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Well...mounted the header...but not without some percussive maintenance on the outer pipes...they heavily interfered with the shift mechanism...the pipes come out from the header flange about 3/8-1/2 inch too far...I know some on the old europa list had talked about this...not a big deal, but thinking that if the entire set of pipes where they are welded to the flange were about 1/2" shorter...it would be ideal (the center pivot to heim center was right at the specified 2.75" center to center...) and give a bit of clearance. Also, with the block-mounted clutch cable fitting...the clutch cable would have more clear space to run, since even with adjusting (ahem) the pipes...it's still less than 1/4 inch. Needless to say...got the exhaust system all plumbed in, those clamps I found work a treat...and the car really sounds good (and suprisingly quiet in the cockpit...to the point that I now notice that I think the rear bearings are going to be needing attention soon...)
And...oh btw...relocating that clutch fitting to the block really really helped with both feel and response of the clutch. If you've not done it yet...highly recommended. Can't wait to see how a new clutch works with the modified arrangement (when I put the resealed lump back in after working on it this winter...;)).
So...took her for a 10 mile run. 4.5 quarts of VR-1 oil, all buttoned up, clutch adjusted...and the pan doesn't leak. BUT...still has leaks, looks like from the back of the head/block joint, and along the head/cam chamber seam. Guess the next step will be the head gasket. But, the BIG puddle under the car which would normally (since I've owned her) be there from the half moon seals wasn't after I parked her over the cardboard mats in the garage to see where the weeps are. Guess I know what I'll be working on this winter.
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Glad to hear everything got sorted and at least the pan leak is cured! :beerchug:
Sorry the hear you may need new rear wheel bearings! That's not a fun job! I don't know about head gasket replacement but I'd guess that won't be a lot of fun either! At least you get to drive it for a while before you have to do those.
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Always nice when things work out well!
TC engines have limited breathing capacity. Adding an extra breather in the cam cover can help quite a bit.
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Glad to hear everything got sorted and at least the pan leak is cured! :beerchug:
Sorry the hear you may need new rear wheel bearings! That's not a fun job! I don't know about head gasket replacement but I'd guess that won't be a lot of fun either! At least you get to drive it for a while before you have to do those.
Well...like the SO says: at least she knows where I am...eiither in the garage, walking around the block, or binge watching something she found on Netflix that we both like.
Fun? Actually, as the A&P who was training me related...the satisfaction with working with your hands (most of my time for real is spent on a computer figuring out complex configurations of network security monitoring programs) is that when it's done, you can point to it and say "it was broken and now I fixed it". Hard to argue with that; there is a certain amount of satisfaction that comes from seeing a problem, reducing it to components, assembling it back, and it is fixed.
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Always nice when things work out well!
TC engines have limited breathing capacity. Adding an extra breather in the cam cover can help quite a bit.
You know, I had a similar problem in my S2: if I left the dipstick in and went for a drive, when I got back the entire side of the engine and frame was covered in oil that got blown out the crankcase through the dipstick tube. I had a buddy sit in the car and press on the accelerator while I watched...when he rev'd the motor, the dipstick would rise enough off the felt seal on the rod...which meant that the crankcase was pressurizing...which I confirmed with an old airspeed indicator that was out of service...plumbed the pitot fitting with a short piece of hose, stuck over the dipstick, and I could move the needle. I also rebuilt the crankcase venting system to original Renault configuration with used parts from Sports Car World before Frank passed on, so that may have helped too.
Right now, the car is missing the tube from the head to the carb box, just vented into a makeshift catch can that I stashed in the rear in front of the rear light. Thinking that the system may need some vacuum to assist in venting the crankcase?
I like your idea of an additional vent in the front of the valve cover; I know the usual suspects sell the fitting...I guess it would be a case of removing the VC, finding a spot (low in the center of the front so I don't interfere with the chain?), drilling for the fitting and running a hose to the catch can. Right now, I'm just venting the catch can to the atmosphere through a small filter....maybe it might be worthwhile to plumb the vent to the stromberg air box to pull a slight vacuum (and recycle the separated vapor back to the intake?)
Thoughts? Of course, I could also use the solution I did on the Renault motor...I just put a rubber cap on the dipstick tube, threw the dipstick in the trunk, and when I got to a show or wanted to check the oil...pulled the cap off, slid the dipstick in for show or for checking...and when time to drive off...reversed the process. It did keep the side of the engine clean (after hosing it down a couple times with varsol..;))...but the dipstick on these things are a bit out of the way...;)
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Definitely thumbs up for using air box “vacuum” to assist with engine breathing.
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Definitely thumbs up for using air box “vacuum” to assist with engine breathing.
Ordered the fitting(s) and grommets this morning. Now to plumb it all up. Thinking of still using an air/oil separator in the mix: bring both the right rear (where the hose that connects to the stromberg) and the new fitting up in the front back to the can, and the air outlet of the separator plumbed back to the carb box. Still thinking on this; pretty sure that I can hide the separator in the rear where my existing "catch can" (actually, a bit redneck engineering: it's an empty gallon jug that the hose coming off the head in back of the carbs is poked into with a filter attached to the cap so it's pretty much at atmospheric pressure...hey, it's hidden, ok? Just a stop-gap to get past the fitting on the head which was just open to the side of the block...and THAT was messy...) is located.