Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Dilkris on Monday,August 09, 2021, 02:22:45 AM
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Can any member in the UK, (sorry all non UK members), point me in the right direction for a source of tyres - looking for 185/70/13 and 175/70/13 (TCS) with the same tread pattern - I am going round in circles here. :confused:
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The PIrelli Cintirato CN36 is available tomorrow in both 175/70 and 185/70. Not a recommendation, as I have not used them myself.
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Also Avon CR6ZZ and Dunlop SP Sport AquaJet. I believe both Longetone and Vintage Tire carry them and the Pirellis.
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Thanks John - I was more focused on where to get them from - your recommendations are well appreciated but shipping from Canada is likely to be expensive for me here across the pond. :))
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Long stone and Vintage Tire are both in the UK. Wish they were in Canada!!!
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Try the big online tyre sellers. This one seems to have plenty of options
https://www.mytyres.co.uk/
They are currently showing 14 options in stock at 185/70r13 and 87 at 175/70r13. You'll have to see what's available in both sizes.
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https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/
https://www.vintagetyres.com/
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I've used blackcircles & etyres in the past. I think it was etyres that had a mobile fitter who delivered & fitted the tyres then balanced the wheels at our house. The same guy did my wife's Audi, my Cayman & the Europa - a great service.
https://www.blackcircles.com/ (https://www.blackcircles.com/)
https://www.etyres.co.uk/175-70-13?speed=all&load_index=all (https://www.etyres.co.uk/175-70-13?speed=all&load_index=all)
If they don't do your area then look around because some of the internet suppliers have deals with local mobile fitters. Shouldn't be any problem getting hold of 175/185 in 70 profile but you might be restricted on the maker.
Brian
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Long stone and Vintage Tire are both in the UK. Wish they were in Canada!!!
Seriously???? :confused: Sorry John, I didn't know. "My Bad" as they say these days. :)) :))
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“Tyres on the drive” might be worth checking, have used black circles, etyres and Tyreleader in the past for a wide variety of vehicles all with good service/prices - depends on which one has the best offers/prices at the time you search. Tyreleader had some amazing deals pre COVID but they ship from all over Europe which appears to be limiting them atm.
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eBay.
Uniroyal or Yokohama.
I think Demon Tweeks sell them. Cost includes fast delivery.
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I have mentioned this before, but it’s appropriate to this discussion. My first Europa, 4339R, came from the factory with Dunlop SP Sports (I believe that was the name.) Fantastic handling. When replacements were needed, I bought the CN36 Pirelli, because the car magazines raved about them. They were awful, completely changed the handling. A friend who did a lot of Autocross agreed. We thought it was due to the change from fabric to steel belts, probably because the Europa is so light.
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Just curious, what was bad about the Pirellis? Sloppy feeling? Steering response? Rough ride?
Thanks!
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It's also worth saying that the Pirelli CN36 is a heavy tire at around 20lbs for 175/70r13 according to this page
https://www.vintagetyres.com/shop/tyres/pirelli-cn36-cinturato-175-70r13-82v
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https://www.asdatyres.co.uk/uniroyal/rainexpert-3/175-70-13-82-t--rainexpert-3
https://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre/uniroyal-rainexpert-3-185-70-r13-86-t
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Delayed reply to JeffBatt. With the Dunlop's it cornered like it was on rails. The CN36 did not feel as secure, an was definitely not as supple. As I said, I think the difference was fabric vs steel.
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Thanks, everyone, for your reposes. I’m struggling a bit with this decision, as far as I can tell right now my three primary choices are either the Pirellis, Kumho all-seasons, or R888’s with less sidewall.
All seem to have distinct pros and cons.
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R888's are a soft tires. On a light Europa, they will harden before wearing out unless doing track days. Some say they are noisy. Completely different tire than a Kumho all season. If you are just a casual driver that never drives more than 75%, I wouldn't get the Toyo's.
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The Toyos are also DOT-legal, track-oriented tires. Might not be the best choice if cold, wet days are in your driving future.
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This saga sort of continues..... finally managed to locate 175-185/70/13 tires, (they came from Belgium), and then had an interesting conversation with the tire center as I wanted to discuss tire valve options. As you will recall in one of my previous threads I spent ages refurbishing the original TCS alloy rims so off I trot to the tire center c/w one of my rims.
I REALLY wanted to use chrome 2 piece valves but it was pointed out that the profile of the rim both inside and outside within the area of the valve hole in the rim precludes this - I accept this - it makes cense and is pretty obvious. :headbanger:
However, the tire "guru" then explains that the wheel profile has only one "safety flange" and therefore it would be dangerous/unwise/not recommended to run tubeless tires on them and that I must use tubes.....
This of course opens up another debate about whether you can/can't/shouldn't run tubes in a tubeless tire - of which a myriad of opinions abound.
So... for the members running TCS with the original alloy rims - what are you running tire wise? :confused:
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Weren't the original wheel/tire combination from the factory tubeless? I would get second opinion from another installer. I've never had a tire installer commenting on my Lotus alloy wheel being a safety issue.
I'm currently running Toyo R888s on my S2, 185s all around, outstanding grip.
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You can run tubes in tubeless tires with a few provisos. First, it has to be within reason. A standard 15” tube will not work in 235/45-15 tire! 70 series should be fine. Second, adding a tube lowers the tire’s speed rating two steps. So “H” rated tires become “T” rated tires (130 to 118 mph).
The “safety ridge” helps retains the bead during severe side loading. Which side of the rim has the safety ridge on the TC alloys?
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Grumblebuns - "yes" - my research (specifically from copy of owners manual data) - describes tires are tubed.
John - "I'm not sure" - will check and photograph the profile (or try to) tomorrow.
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You can run tubes in tubeless tires with a few provisos. First, it has to be within reason. A standard 15” tube will not work in 235/45-15 tire! 70 series should be fine. Second, adding a tube lowers the tire’s speed rating two steps. So “H” rated tires become “T” rated tires (130 to 118 mph).
The “safety ridge” helps retains the bead during severe side loading. Which side of the rim has the safety ridge on the TC alloys?
The speed rating is largely irrelevant in this speed controlled world, 30 years ago I regularly had my s2 up to 125mph, would get hung, drawn & quartered now.
I doubt many MOT testers would now about tubes reducing the speed rating of a tyre
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I have a feeling we are all living dangerously without tubes. :confused:
BTW - regarding ti(y)re selection, I went with the Pirellis, against advice. So far I am quite happy with them. The installer over inflated them (more on that later) and they were horribly squirrely, until I realized the mistake and took them down to recommended pressure. Big improvement! They seem to grip nicely compared to the aging Coopers that came with the car, though I have only driven the in slight anger (63 yo street punk mode). They are summer-only tires and mine is a summer only car. You track guys, may scoff, but I also love the way they look, retro sportscar tread and all.
I bought mine on line from Lucas Classic Tire (Long Beach CA, USA). On the negative side, my rears are date code 2020 but my fronts are from 2017. I also had to try 4 different tire shops to find someone willing to mount tires on 13 inch rims from a "classic sportscar" for fear of liability from damaging the rims. I finally found a guy who just opened his own shop and needed the work and did the mounting himself. He also needed a LOT of weights to balance the wheel, though I suspect the problem is in the wheel casting, not the tire as there is evidence the old tires required weights in the same location.
Tom
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Tyre fitter is talking complete crap. Fit them without tubes. The factory did as standard, and the vast majority of Europa owners do. Someone please correct me if you disagree.
I had to run tubes when rally driving. It had no detrimental effect, but was a complete waste of time and money.
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One of the many things I know little about is tires but I remember tubeless Dunlop fabric radials (nylon?) were OEM on my Brand Lotus wheels when I bought my car. I know of no problems running tubeless nor for not having a second safety flange. Of course, tire construction has changed a lot since 1975 and as JB reminds us YMMV. I do remember talk back then that the steel belted radials that were just becoming popular back then were not supposed to work as well as the fabric radials but if that ever really was an issue, it is not as serious a situation now although in a conversation with Ken Gray at DBE, he suggested that new tires have some handling deficiencies.
I'm assuming that the second safety flange is designed to help keep the bead of the tire against the edge of the wheel. I don't run the original Brand Lotus wheels now but rather 3-piece Compomotive wheels. I don't remember what they looked like without tires on them but looking at the lips, there does not appear to be such a second safety flange and I have no problems with my tires.
Correction: I had a wheel off this afternoon and noticed on the barrel section (inner part of the wheel) there seemed to be a safety flange so I'm guessing they are on both sides of the wheel. And since it's obvious I don't mind being wrong, I'm going to suggest that those safety flanges or ridges came after, maybe long after, our Europas. I don't remember seeing them back then.
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I don't know about the factory wheels but on the valve stems, have you looked into aluminum ones? Might match the aluminum wheel finish better than chrome and are light. Can probably source some from Ebay too.
http://949racing.com/lugs-valves.aspx
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I've never heard that one before and I've never fitted tubes to either the Elan (steel wheels, profile similar to the S2 Europa) or the Europa.
But curiosity raised I had a look in the TC owners manual and found these two pages which acknowledge the potential for the tyre to move. However it states fairly clearly that if you stick to the specifications they give then there's no need to fit tubes in tubeless tyres.
Then in true Lotus fashion, they muddy the waters by specifying in the workshop manual that the standard tyres are Dunlop SP Sport fitted with tubes..... but then go on for the optional alloy wheels to omit the "with tubes" bit for the wider tyre/rim combination. Excellent !!!!! :)
Brian
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I disagree about disregarding speed ratings. Most of the tires available now in the stock sizes are “off-brand” with not particularly high speed ratings. Add a tube and you “might” be in trouble on a road where the mean speed is 80+ mph. Just something to factor in when choosing tires, and rims.
The tire bead is most likely to push off the outside rim edge as that receives the highest cornering load. If the safety ridge is on the out side, as it usually is, you should be fine.
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The “safety ridge” helps retains the bead during severe side loading. Which side of the rim has the safety ridge on the TC alloys?
Please see attached photo's - the "safety ridge" or "safety flange" is clearly shown on the photo of the rim profile and is situated to the front face (outer) of the rim.
I don't know about the factory wheels but on the valve stems, have you looked into aluminum ones?
Tire valve "hole" photo hopefully shows how the fitting of 2 piece valve stems would not be possible.
So there is no confusion as regards which wheels I am talking about please see 4th photo.
I know absolutely nothing about the science of tubed/tubeless tires (tyres??) and rim profiles - I did go back to the first tire guru and advised him that it had been suggested that he was "talking crap" - that conversation did not go well..... and I guess after fitting tires for some 40 years I would assume he knows what he is talking about. I didn't go back to the second tire guru (who equally had confirmed yesterday that I was holding a tubed rim) and repeat the comment. :)) :)) Once bitten :))
Present consensus appears that members are running tubeless tires on these rims without incident, so for me I'm happy to go with the flow. I'll repost again if something of note occurs.
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If you are running the recommended tyre pressures, I can foresee no potential problem.
This Forum is viewed by very many Europa owners, many of whom have the Dunlop wheels fitted to their TC and TCS cars.
If there were a problem, I am sure we would have heard about it on this Forum.
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:I-agree:
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Yup, you'll be fine. Most rims only have the safety ridge on that side.
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Lots of searching for the correct speed rated tyres for 1973 twin cam special - de-federal - I found.
Nankang Econex NA-1 185/70 R13 86H Summer tyres
Hankook Kinergy2 K435 175/70 R13 82H SBL SBL
They are not expensive, set of 4 £159 plus £70 fitting and balancing.
And the handling appears ok.
The topic of speed rating has been covered and disputed before.
Whether you need tyres rated to the design speed of the vehicle in the uk is un clear. But why not most of the non-speed rated tyres where specified as trailer tyres
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Lots of searching for the correct speed rated tyres for 1973 twin cam special - de-federal - I found.
Nankang Econex NA-1 185/70 R13 86H Summer tyres
Hankook Kinergy2 K435 175/70 R13 82H SBL SBL
I found finding the tire sizes not a problem - the challenge I found was finding 175 and 185/70/13 tires of the same make and tread pattern.
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Over here you can put on trailer tires if you want. As long as the tread depth is more than minimum, you're "legal". Whether you are smart or not is another question. Do bear in mind though that speed ratings are for a continuous speed. It you have a T rated tire and zip up top H rated speeds for a brief period, you'll probably be fine. Myself, I use tires rated just a bit higher than the max possible speed, just in case. YMMV
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The topic of speed rating has been covered and disputed before.
Whether you need tyres rated to the design speed of the vehicle in the uk is un clear. But why not most of the non-speed rated tyres where specified as trailer tyres
The speed rating aspect was debated years ago (80s ? 90s ?) in Club Lotus because the Elans had 155/80x13 HR rated tyres and no-one could supply them. Everyone (including me) just fitted the highest they could get, which was generally the next level down.
Graham Arnold took it up on behalf of the club with insurance companies and, IIRC, with some of his legal buddies. The result was that basically you could fit anything you could get as long as it had tread & no damage. He did point out that the higher rating wasn't just about the tread being capable of the speed, it included improvements to the tyre walls & reinforcements as well, so "get the best you can".
The later regs have banned tyres over 10yrs old on coaches, lorries, etc but not cars. The wording on tyre suitability is open to interpretation because in the first line it says the tyres must be suitable for the vehicle's speed and then says it must be ok up to 70mph. So you don't have to fit HR rated, anything over "N" (87mph) is legal and makes a nonsense of the first sentence.
Actual text :
"The Tester will inspect that the tyres are suitable for the vehicle with respect to load and speed rating. The tyres must be suitable for use up to 70mph unless the vehicle is a ‘restricted speed vehicle’."
(it might have changed again, but it was that the last time I looked)
Brian