Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: califkid_66 on Wednesday,June 23, 2021, 04:18:24 PM
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ok where did i go wrong ! im trying to install my rack when i need to change parts like tie rod ends i always count how many turns to remove and same amount of turns to put back now two problems arised first i put my steering wheel straight and the rack dead center
now my tie rod passenger had 22 turns the one driver had 9 so i figured rack is halfway
steering is straight take the 22 plus the 9 equals 31 so split in haff but then i noticed my tie rod
were 1/8 longer
i turned the tie rod same amount on both sides steering was not straight
then i figured ok ill do same as when i took them off tried 22 turns passenger tie rod steering was almost straight but tie rod needed at least two more turns for wheel and steering to be straight problem is you can’t turn it more than 22 times so steering is crooked would need two more turns
the old tie rods where a bit shorter
how or what can i do don’t want to order some other tie rods
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I have put a hose clamp around the tie rod and measured to the center of the tie rod end with dial calipers and put the new ones on to the same dimension so the number of turns doesn't matter. Of course this doesn't help you at this point....
You could calculate the increased number of turns required on each side to account for the 1/8" by dividing 1" by the tread pitch to give you the movement per turn and turn the necessary number of turns.
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You could count the turns lock to lock and then turn the wheel to the middle of that sweep (I don't remember how many it is) and install your tie rod ends. You can get close with a tape measure - measuring the distance from convenient places on your tires between right and left tires if you're going to take it somewhere to be aligned or you could just align it yourself.
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i can put back the old tie rods the problem is the passenger side one was at 22 turns witch is the maximum you can turn it but being that the new tie rod is longer i would have to turn it 24 times
but it bottoms out at 22 so my steering is crocked
thinking about it and writing about it i just realized that the new tie rods won’t work
reason i say this is on passenger side if original tie rod was at 22 turns and there is a stopper on the shaft means it needs to be a specific length so that the wheel turns between A and B if you change that lenght for example passenger side longer tie rod your wheel will have less movement turning left because of the stopper and more movement to the right
so the way i see it passenger side if you have the right tie rod screwed in to the end puts steering straight then driver side adjust for wheel alignment
we did my sons car not a europa one side is not adjustable and one side is
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thanks BDA when i removed them i counted the turns
for installation i did count the steering wheel turns it’s 2 1/4 i tried
put it at 1 1/8 was straight but splitting total amount of turns between two side got steering wheel all crooked so i tried putting back same amount of turns as before but being the tie ros are a bit longer the steering was almost straight missing about 2 turns but it bottom out
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Unless your tie rod end has less than three turns on the tie rod, the number of turns a tie rod end needs is irrelevant. You are not likely to center the rack exactly so the number of turns one tie rod end will need will be affected by that. Take off the steering wheel and recenter it if you need to. As in so many things, most things are relative. This is one of those things.
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thanks i guess i was more focused on getting the steering wheel straight by adjusting the tie rods i didn’t even know i could remove and straighten the steering wheel
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Let us know how it turns out.
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thanks i guess i was more focused on getting the steering wheel straight by adjusting the tie rods i didn’t even know i could remove and straighten the steering wheel
Whenever I've had steering racks off I've followed the same pattern as BDA outlined. Count the turns without the wheels connected, roughly centre and go from there. Invariably I end up after the first test drive removing the steering wheel and moving it one spline either way to get it right.
It's an old car, old tech, so don't get too wound up on trying to centre from scratch using the track rod ends. It's ok to use that if you re-use the same rod ends, but in the past I've bought new ones which were dimensionally different from those I was taking off.... which messes up the "xxx turns and it's good" theory !
Brian
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Let us know how it turns out.
Pretty sure califkid_66 is trying to avoid that . . :D
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Let us know how it turns out.
Pretty sure califkid_66 is trying to avoid that . . :D
Very good..... :)
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I had to move my rack in the clamps to get equal lock and equal tie rod turns for each side.
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Let us know how it turns out.
Pretty sure califkid_66 is trying to avoid that . . :D
Very good..... :)
There might have been a better choice of words! ;D
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i put the old one back on same amount of turns steering is straight
wheels look pretty straight the new ones are longer and bigger im probably going to get the exact ones i had on less trouble
on a positive note the steering rack is really turning nice no more loose changing the bushing made a huge difference
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You could count the turns lock to lock and then turn the wheel to the middle of that sweep (I don't remember how many it is)
I always reckon it is about 2 1/3 turns lock to lock. So 1 1/6th turn from full lock to central position.
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I had the same problem when rebuilding my steering rack.
I just cut them to the correct length, the bore depth in the tie rod was deep enough in my case.
Just cut straight and finish with a file.
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The turnsignal cancel cam also needs to be centered.
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Good point, Gary. The slot in the collar looks like it's in the center but it's not so you should test the slot you chose to make sure it cancels properly (or as properly as it's intended to!).
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i did think about grinding them down to same lenght but as long as the extension doesn’t bottom out it should work
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You shouldn’t need to do that.
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This has come up before. Some replacement tie-rod ends are too long. You need to trim them to suit, or find others.
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for now i put the old tie rods back and was going to order the same but since i have the longer ones already im going to try to shorten them
when the long tie rods were on i had my steering wheel dead center did same amount of turns but ended up having the passenger side wheel pointing outward and the tie rod was screwed at maximum witch is 22 turns so to get the passenger wheel straight i had to turn the steering to the left now what im trying to say is that since i had to turn the steering to the left the amount of travel before the stopper hits the rack is reduced by turning the steering to get the wheel straight so to prove my theory
i turned the steering completely to one side and completely to the other side and used an angle finder
and noticed that turning left the wheel had a lesser angle than turning right so aligning the steering wheel with the wheels straight will not solve the problem and the only way to get equal turning angles is to have a shorter tie rod
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I must admit I'm getting a bit confused on this thread. I've not heard of tie rods needing to be reduced in length but I have heard of the tie rod end bearing ("track rod end" over here in the UK) being the wrong length because there are plenty out there which fit the taper and will go on, but have different length bodies.
Ok, I confess I've never bothered to look deeply into this but I thought that the early cars had extenders fitted to the tie rods to get the correct geometry and Lotus introduced longer tie rods on the later cars ? I've seen threads on the Elan forum and also I think on the old Yahoo group about getting the correct tie rods but if yours are the original ones which worked before then I'm puzzled why they need to be modified now.
On the image attached, which bit are you thinking of cutting down ?
Brian
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On a S1/2 Lotus used an extender at the end of the tie/track rod to move tie/track rod end further out. Effective but then the inner tie/track rod swivel doesn’t line up with the a-arm bushings leading to bump steer. The TC/S extends out the inner tie/track rod swivel which then lines up nicely with the a-arm bushings to help control bump steer.
The issue in this case is the length of the outer tie/track rod end’s threaded body. It’s too long and you hit the lock nuts before you are far enough in. As long as there is sufficient depth in the threaded bore, you can shorten the body to get the tie/track rod end further on.
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JB that’s exactly what im saying and being longer it changes the turning radius because of the stopper like i explained earlier so the only solution is to put back same lenght tie rods or shorten the longer tie rods to same lenght as original
Brian im talking about the tie rod end i am not trying to modify the original ones they fit perfectly but the new ones witch i received are longer need to be shortened to get equal turning radius on both side
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Ok. USA/UK terminology strikes again.....
:)
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ok spent the day in the garage
i shortened one of the long tie rod wit a cut off wheel to fit passenger side
a bit shorter than the original here are the steps i did
1 put steering wheel dead center
2 installed the passenger side tie rod to have the wheel as straight as possible this way i have equal
turning radius on both sides steering stays straight tighten up passenger side install wheel
3 installed unmodified tie rod on driver side put as straight as possible then when everything looked
straight i mesured front and back of tires using a measuring tape measuring from grove to grove did
final adjustment
4 went for test drive no shaking beat my previous record and hit 70 mph just wow!!
as you can see in the pictures steering wheel and wheels all well aligned and straight
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after my ride i started reading about alignment i aligned my front wheels to be parallel i thought that’s the way to do it but then i saw the word toe and what it does and then thought about my ride and how the handling was very nervous compared to before so i read that adjusting toe in will create stability at higher speed witch i did not have extremely nervous steering
so my question is how much toe in would you suggest
on europa s2 it says 3/16 to 1/16 i want the car to be stable at higher speeds
another question i changed my tires got kumho solus ta 175/70r13 i saw them getting on the balancer and checked to make sure they were round and not shaking and well balanced the guy put in 30 pounds pressure what would be a good pressure for a smooth ride i saw somewhere someone putting 22 in front 24 in back what would be a decent pressure
thanks for your help
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Any where in the spec range is fine. With a fresh front end, new bushes and joints, I go closer to the minimum spec. Old, bit dodgy, front end, I go more to the maximum.
I’d go 18 - 20 psi front and 26 to 28 psi rear. +2 psi for fully loaded or high speed.
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I'd say the tyre pressures are the most likely culprit. 30psi might be the new normal with low profile tyres but as John says, it's way too much for cars like this.
18lbs sounds ridiculously low but the Europa is light and dropping the pressure will make a big difference to how it feels. I tend to run the rears between 28-30 but mine is a TC and slightly heavier at the rear.
Tracking is currently 1/16th toe in but I've run it parallel in the past without any drama. I think it was Tim Engel who wrote a convincing argument for a fraction toe-out and he's put plenty of miles on Europas over the years.
Brian
Edit to add.... After posting I had doubts on my memory so just checked the TC manual and for 175/70 below 100mph it actually says 16psi.... and I might have to revisit my 30psi rears as well, 26psi is quoted for a 185 and mine are 205..... whoops ! :-[
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today i adjusted the toe to 3/16 then checked the tyre pressure the guy told me 30 it was at 34 so i décided to go down to 20 front 28 rear it was more stable and had a smoother ride made a huge difference really more pleasent to drive i didn’t realize little changes like this could make a huge difference in handling
thanks for all your help and comments