Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: mike alain on Thursday,May 20, 2021, 04:03:54 AM
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Folks, 10 hours spent so far on brakes with ALL new parts, have I used WRONG fluid DOT3?, spitfire master(aftermarket) also calipers and rear cylinders, the forum guys all said use dot3
but doing some research they say only girling fluid, I removed master (again) seals are not expanded, so I THINK dot 3 is ok for all these aftermarket parts, and yes
the o ring is in front calipers, I use a pressure bleeder pump on all corners with farther started first, I get lots of air ALL the time, no leaks anywhere, undid all lines and verified all fittings correct
and not leaking. I have spent a year on this car, done everything including new frame, spent over 10,000 so far (fool) and I think I am about to give up and dump this piece of crap. The
car has won, it has worn me out. Mike.
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Mike, sorry to hear of all your issues. The work you have done so far is stellar. Maybe it is time to farm out the brake issue. I know these cars can be challenging, but the reward of driving her makes it all worth while.
Sandy
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I don't know the s2 but I assume it does not have a booster. If that is true, then I bleed new brakes by running a tygon clear hose from the corner being bled back to the master cylinder reservoir. You can then pump the pedal until there are no more bubbles and you don't use 10 gallons of brake fluid in the process. Bleed all four corners.
DOT 3 is fine.
I don't think there is a way for air to enter the system by using a pressure bleeder ( does it pressurize the mc?) unless you are running out of fluid.
Anyway, I think you will find my bleeding method useful and the master cylinder won't run out of fluid requiring you to bleed all four corners again.
Good luck. I think you are close.
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Mike - I have the tee shirt for where you are (and so too have many other members I am sure) - just walk away from it for a while - (a week?) and go back to it later. "Yes" parts of the Europa are hugely frustrating and many times I have wanted to walk away from my rebuild (TCS) - but I press on - if it beats you, it will be hard to recover.....
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After putting the body on have been on , I need to route the last two lines to the master.
I also have a master with the connectors on the outer side. I’m using Dot 5 and had good pedal during the initial test. After reading this I’m not sure I want to finish or start now. All I can say is , “let’s get her done,..” . I’ll post my advice also.
Dakazman
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I had renewed my MC and servo, and replaced all brake lines. New drum wheel cylinders and new front discs.
It took ages to bleed the brakes.
Then I found the servo vacuum pipe was loose.
I fitted a new vacuum pipe, and then the pedal went to the floor, absolutely nothing. So activating the servo caused problems.
I then took all 4 wheels off, sat my wife in the car, and then bled each corner in turn. After bleeding each corner in turn 3 times, eventually lots of bubbles came out of the system. I started the engine twice to active the servo, and this seems to help purge the air out.
Eventually no more air came out, but it takes ages to purge all the air out. Garages use a pressurised fluid into the MC to push the air out.
Patience is needed. Bleeding the brakes is a 2 person job, and can take ages if you are starting from dry.
Cue Mission Impossible music........ "Good luck Jim".
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that's it. I spent another 2 hours, removed mast double check every every part. pressure bled gets LOTS of air on every corner. real bad lots of air, bled again but with wify pushs pedal,
after 300 hours of work. it is now for sale , my mental heath is more important then this. 10,000 gets the car and it has running rebuilt engine and new frame. ready for paint. fu*k it.
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I don't know the s2 but I assume it does not have a booster. If that is true, then I bleed new brakes by running a tygon clear hose from the corner being bled back to the master cylinder reservoir. You can then pump the pedal until there are no more bubbles and you don't use 10 gallons of brake fluid in the process. Bleed all four corners.
DOT 3 is fine.
I don't think there is a way for air to enter the system by using a pressure bleeder ( does it pressurize the mc?) unless you are running out of fluid.
Anyway, I think you will find my bleeding method useful and the master cylinder won't run out of fluid requiring you to bleed all four corners again.
Good luck. I think you are close.
That’s a really clever way of bleeding a new system. Normally you would want to make sure the ends of the tubing are below the fluid level in the reservoir so that air isn’t sucked back into the system but the runs are probably long enough that it is not a problem. I would not use this method for subsequent bleeding because you want to get rid of the old fluid.
DOT 3 is fine. I prefer DOT 5.1. It has a higher wet and dry boiling point and is compatible with DOT 3 and the DOT 4 fluids which are all glycol based. Glycol fluids are not compatible with silicone (DOT 5) fluids and should never be mixed which means that unless you want to go to a lot of trouble to completely clean out your system, don’t think about going from glycol to silicone or vice versa.
If you have no leaks, including into your booster if you have one, just keep bleeding. If you don’t use pfreen’s method, you must run a tube from the bleed valve into a bottle of fluid and that tube must always be below the fluid level in the bottle.
Good luck!
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Air seeps through much easier than brake fluid.
If you are still getting bubbles after all that you do have an air leak somewhere.
I went through similar issues with my Land Rover 101 FC.
In the end I had to fit copper washers at the fittings to get a perfect seal.
Should not have been necessary with all new parts, but it was.
All these recent cars at around $10K, so frustrating I cannot buy them!
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35 years using DOT3 in British vehicles with no problems.
What kind of pressure bleeder are you using?
Can you get an Assistant? Or, do you have to do this by yourself?
Front brakes should be hooked closest to the pedal, rears furthest.
Bleed the fronts first, then the rears.
Here's what I do:
- bleed the master BEFORE installing it. I rig up lines from the outputs back to the reservoir. Hold the master in a vise and pump slowly until it pumps clear fluid.
- remove the pipes and plug the ports.
- install the master and fill up the reservoir. Give it a minute for the air to clear the reservoir.
- use a clean plastic jug with a clear hose that will fit the bleeder snugly.
- start at the far front calliper. Hook up the hose, open the bleeder and pump the pedal slowly 10 times. Close the bleeder.
- top up the master
- next closer calliper, same again
- next the farthest rear wheel cylinder (not fussy really)
- next the closet rear wheel cylinder
- now go back to the far front and bleed in ten pump cycles until it pumps just fluid.
- REMEMBER TO KEEP CHECKING THE LEVEL
- all pumping clear?
- double check all the bleeders are tight
- rinse around the bleeder area with water.
How's the pedal?
Little low? If engaging the handbrake improves things then your rear brakes need adjusting.
Brake light one? Go to the spool valve and remove the plastic sensor. Use a pic to centre the valve (valve is centred with the high spot in view).
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You reminded me of another possibility, Richard! If you loosen the bleed valve too much, you can get air sucked in through the threads of the valve. Obviously, the same holds true for any fitting that is not tight. Usually brake fittings are straight threaded so the seal is formed by a flare or bubble but if you have pipe threads, you should use some sealant like teflon tape or silicon sealant.
I hesitate to mention it (because its somewhat expensive and I had lived without it for a long time but this stuff is so intriguing that I keep finding uses for it so I will. It is a lubricant called EZ-Turn. It is a goo that does not dissolve in gasoline or even parts washer fluid. It seals and lubricates threads so it can be handy for brake bleed valves (applied carefully so as not to obstruct the holes in the valve), idle mixture screws, or anything you want to be able to turn later but seal from air ingress. It works as a gasket goo - I recently used it on the fuel strainer cover gaskets of my Webers that were leaking. It does not harden. It is usually available from aircraft supply stores but if you do an Interweb search for it, you'll probably find it other places.
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If the master won't pump clear fluid when you are bleeding it on the bench, then there's your problem. Inexpensive masters are much less reliable than the OEM ones. I know it's tempting to try and save money but this is one area wher it is worth spending the extra dosh.
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I do not use vacuum bleeders, more trouble than they are worth. True pressure bleeders work well but often make a mess.
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JB - sorry - what does this mean? "If the master would pump clear fluid when you are bleeding it on the bench, then there's your problem." Chris
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Sigh, would = won't!
I'll fix the post and leave this as testament to my dyslexia.
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Now it makes sense..... :))
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Pics of the car for sale. It runs? Easy fix for someone.
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is the car fitted with the original Girling servo or a modern Lockheed replacement ?
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No servos in a 69 S2. It is a shame to sell the car all because of a defective rebuilt master brake cylinder.
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No, not cheap.
But does sound like the hot trick for leaky bleed screws.
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/ezturnlube.php
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Ez turn in another life we had a tube for fuel valves it was a miracle worker. Valves that no one ever turned off because of how stiff they were became silky smooth low torque as they should be.
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that's it. I spent another 2 hours, removed mast double check every every part. pressure bled gets LOTS of air on every corner. real bad lots of air, bled again but with wify pushs pedal,
after 300 hours of work. it is now for sale , my mental heath is more important then this. 10,000 gets the car and it has running rebuilt engine and new frame. ready for paint. fu*k it.
Hi Mike,
I know this will be hard to believe from where you are but I'll bet every one of us on this forum has been in that position at some time or other. And not just the Europa, I've sat in the corner of the garage looking at plenty of cars and wondering where the matches are, so you're not alone here.
Lots of advice and I can't really add much other than;
1. I use clear plastic tubing on the bleed nipples with a non-return valve in the end. No reason other than it makes it easier for a one man job.
2. I made a stand that holds the bleed tube so that it rises upwards and forms a loop 3-4" above the bleed nipple. Easier to see air bubbles and they certainly ain't going to get sucked back into the caliper/cylinder against gravity.
3. I use PTFE threadseal tape (plumbers tape ?) on every nipple. It is easy to do as BDA says and draw air into the stream of fluid leaving the caliper, the tape usually stops that.
4. I have used a pressure bleeder as well as the traditional pedal pushing, I've had equal amounts of success or failure with either method.
5. From hazy memory I think when I had rear drums I used to pull the handbrake on before bleeding. My logic was that the piston travels to it's max on first push and should stay there during the process. Don't know if it made any practical difference, but I did it.
6. You might not like this one, but during my brake upgrade sessions I had a lot of trouble at one point so I pulled off the calipers and rotated them whilst bleeding. There is no logic behind that idea with this caliper design but.... I did get a single bubble out. Yes, I know it shouldn't, but it did. Whether it was rotating or just plain vibration/movement, but I definitely dislodged some air (probably in the caliper body) with that process.
Finally, if you've got a steady stream of air then there must be a leak somewhere. My bet would be bleed nipples but it could be anywhere. As you're obviously a handy guy with spanners I'd be tempted to block off the rear circuit by using bleed nipples in place of the bundy pipe and just bleed the front to see if you can get a good pedal there, maybe even start with one caliper.
Brian
ps - it's frustrating now but just think how good you're going to feel once it's done !
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An easy way to prevent air ingestion at the bleed nipples is to put a dollop of chassis grease on the threads where the bleeder meets the caliper.
The bleeder only needs to be opened 1/2 to 1 turn.
Is the bleeder for the caliper at the highest point? ....On some calipers the bleeder is not at the top, so the caliper must be bled un-mounted.
If there is no leakage at fittings or lines, air can be ingested at caliper piston seals, wheel cylinder seals, and bleed nipples. ...Loose-fitting hoses attached to the bleeders can also allow air entry during the bleeding process.
There is ALWAYS an answer to a problem! ...Some answers just take longer to discover.
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If you are using a pressure bleeder, then air won’t be “sucked” into the system. You are feeding pressurized brake fluid through the reservoir. This is an excellent method though it can get messy.
However, many people say “pressure bleeder” when they are actually using a vacuum bleeder. Vacuum bleeders can draw in air from a variety of places as they put negative pressure on seals not designed for it. I do not recommend using a vacuum bleeder for this reason.
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Mike, I’ve bought many stalled projects from frustrated owners who were very close to complete their years long project. They gave up because something was taking too long to replace/repair. In the end, all the hard work was already done and the new owner (me) just had to tidy up a few things and walla, the car was on the road.
Over the years I have learned it’s best to walk away for a day or two when frustration sets in. Think about the problem, research what others have done on the internet. When your ready, go back and check every connection in the brake system for a leak, your pulling air from somewhere and it’s probably a fitting or the push rod into the master cylinder is the wrong length.
Another huge help is to have a mechanically inclined friend to help you. Two heads are better than one and usually one of those heads will come up with the right solution very calmly.
Advice from a guy who has done many frame off restorations. Don’t give up!
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Are the brake lines new? A line with a pin hole from rust can give you fits .....
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Don't sell...please.....you are so close. You will get there
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May have some liquid funds soon, but after looking at a map the car is about as far from me as possible without being on another continent. :headbanger:
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Finally got 'some'brakes, the vacuum bleeder is the problem, I now assume it does not work on this car for some reason. bleed the very old fashion way, with a bottle on the floor with the
tube inside the fluid, allowed gravity to bleed brakes, 15 minutes on each corner, no pushing pedal, no tool except gravity and finally got some brakes, in my 60 years of doing brakes
this has been the hardest I have ever had to do.
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Progress, albeit slow, but you are heading in the right direction.
How do the bubbles come out if you are relying on gravity? I thought bubbles rise to the top.
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Finally got 'some'brakes, the vacuum bleeder is the problem, I now assume it does not work on this car for some reason. bleed the very old fashion way, with a bottle on the floor with the
tube inside the fluid, allowed gravity to bleed brakes, 15 minutes on each corner, no pushing pedal, no tool except gravity and finally got some brakes, in my 60 years of doing brakes
this has been the hardest I have ever had to do.
as soon as you enough brakes to go out on the open road with no leaks or pedal going to the floor, re-adjust the rear brakes & drive the car, after a few miles the brakes will improve once the MC seals & wheel cylinder seals are forced out in the bore & some warmth is fed into the system, then open the nipple on each wheel and see if there is any more air left in it.
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Well done Mike, that’s great news
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I've got a couple of brake bleeding tips. A steady stream of bubbles at all four corners strongly suggests air is being sucked in at the bleed screw threads. This can be dealt with by opening the bleed screw only on the downstroke, and closing it before the pedal is lifted. This is a pain, and requires coordination between the wheel man and the pedal man. A better way is to seal the bleed screw threads with E-Z Turn as suggested, which makes bleeding a one-man operation. If your car is a Federal model, it's probably got the "brake fail warning light valve". I've heard these can cause difficulty while bleeding, and the suggestion is to simultaneously bleed a front wheel and a rear wheel at the same time, so the plunger in the valve won't move to cut off flow to the wheel being bled.
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Good to hear, Mike. :beerchug:
My must difficult were for a jet tug that used DC3 brakes over an pressurized air source , 4 accumulators . They were also reverse bleeding 🤯.
Dakazman