Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Mecky on Friday,May 01, 2020, 11:20:00 AM
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Hi guys,
Can anyone help me with identifying the Renault 5 speed gearbox, which is shown on the pictures?
There is a number on the housing: 7700597321
It's been in my car since I got it and I'm afraid that something could break soon. It already had some minor issues and I want to be able to source spare parts in case of any damage.
Thank you
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That's a 395.
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Consumables such as bearings, seals and syncho-rings are available. Gaskets, not all but they can be made up. Everything else? Nope, find used. They were used in early-mid 70s Renaults.
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What's the external difference between a 365 and a 395?
Perhaps counting the 5th gear teeth might be illuminating, though not definitive, perhaps.
Looking at the diff & counting the spider gears might be better.
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My 365 has the gear linkage running down the left hand side of the engine and gearbox and the gear selector enters from the rear end of the gearbox (where it can apparently be vulnerable to hitting the kerb if you are not careful when reversing).
The 395 above has it running down the right hand side and the gear selector enters from the right hand side.
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Yes, Silver, there's different versions of the 365.
Here's a 365 from an Oz delivered R17TS.
The rear cover and gear change selector shaft orientation appears quite similar to Meckys.
EDIT:
Ooops . . . forgot to include the pic.
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Yes, there are "side-shift" 365s. The 365 and 395 are closely related. The main difference is that the 365 has 4 spider gears in the diff and the 395 has 2. The gear ratios are different as well. The 395 has closely spaced first through third and then a large step between third and fourth. The step to fifth varies depending on model. The 365 has an evenly spaced, close-spaced set of ratios all the way through.
So does it go from gear to gear with even rpm drops? Or, is there a larger drop between third and fourth?
I called 395 because I have one and it's identical to the above.
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So when I'm counting the teeth of the 5th gear, I will be able to identify the exact version, right?
I'm a little bit afraid that the gearbox, which is designed for something around 80 HP could break, since it is already exposed to the doubled amount of power (I don't know the torque figures of the R17, R18 and Fuegos) during the last years. Even while it was only around 30 hours of real stress in that period, it could be an issue sooner or later.
Or what do you think? Have they prooven reliable even with performance engines? I have just today seen Spencer Canon's Europa Hemi race car on IG, which has the same gearbox. I'm curious for his feedback, as well.
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Don't worry. I raced a Europa with a 807G engine in SCCA for 3 years with a 336 box. That's not even as strong as a 395. 807G engine was rated by Renault at 160hp, 121 lb. ft. I had 10" wide Goodyear racing slicks and never had a gearbox problem. Did spin a rod bearing until I baffled the sump.
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So when I'm counting the teeth of the 5th gear, I will be able to identify the exact version, right?
Perhaps - perhaps not, but it should at least provide some guidance.
Is there a small round metal tag on one of the 5th cover bolts?
If so, that should have the Transaxle type # on it.
365's are commonly fitted with a couple of different 5th gears, but both are shorter than a 395's 5th.
Counting the teeth should eliminate one or the other.
So yeah, count the teeth.
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The gearboxes are plenty strong. They used the 365 in full race Alpine A110 1800s which were putting out a little under 200 hp IIRC. Everything else broke but not the gearboxes.
Having said that, the 395 has a two spider diff which is a wee bit subpar. I fit a Quaife diff to mine and that is more than strong enough.
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Hi guys, I dismantled the gearbox altogether. Even though I just wanted to make a small inspection. But something from shift fork for gears 1 and 2 is broken. I attached a pic :deadhorse:
The fifth gear's teeth count 36/31.
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It's a later 395 with a 0.86 fifth and an extra low first.
Can't tell from that photo what's up with the shift fork. I think the best/only way to get parts is to find a used box.
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I have found a used 395-33 gearbox from a R17TS. The rear cover and shifter are a bit different to my own gearbox, but most internals should be the same, right? I attached a few pics of the gearbox, which I could buy.
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It uses a different shifting system. It may not match what you have.
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Hi guys,
now I found a Renault NG3-00 gearbox from a Fuego. From the pictures of the housing, it looks right for plug&play-replacement of my old gearbox.
And with the Fuego the rotation of the gears should be the same with the Europa, right?
EDIT: The photos were cut. On a full view pic, I saw that the shifting mechanism is different (pics attached).
EDIT 2: From the manuals of 395 and NG3 in comparison, it seems to be possible to fit the rear cover including shifter of the 395 to the NG3 gearbox. The shifting forks and shafts seem to be the same in both gearboxes. Can anybody confirm that? :help:
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Generally NG boxes are bigger than 395/365 boxes and parts are not interchangeable.
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There are two ways to shift NG3s. One from the shaft that you see coming out of the rear cover to the "rear." I've seen some cable shifters use that. There are some detailed plans in the files that EuropaTC collected (and very nicely organized!) when the yahoo group closed down. You can find some here (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1uOmTsXhIF3qlutvCvmY8sAaliwc8Rwbj).
The other is with the slightly diagonal cross shaft. This is the method Richard used on the NG3 boxes he sold. I've posted a couple of pictures of that area of my car that hopefully will give you an idea. This link (http://www.greytower.com/jon/lotus/europa/gearbox/gearbox.html) shows the modifications one guy did to hook up an NG3 to a Zetec including how he how he did his cable shifter. I have a shift mechanism more like that used on the 336. I notice that he made a new cross member to mount the tranny. I used the rear "hoop" for a 336 mounting it in a more traditional way with mounting brackets from Richard. I don't think you'd need to do all his mods. You should be able to figure out what you'd need and don't need.
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Here is the part, which caused trouble in my gearbox. Synchronizer of gears 1 & 2. In worst case, I want to take this part from the NG3 to repair my 395. Hard to believe that every single part is different, even though the gear ratios are the same.
Many rough edges caused jamming and prevented to shift gear 1 and 2.
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Most transmissions/transaxles aren't fond of selecting second until they are warm. It's just a trait of early synchromesh designs. When the oil is cold, the 1-2 change has a definite two steps. First you stop the synchro, then the gear. It's so slow that gear has the time to change speed after the synchro pressure is reduced. Thus it grinds. You need to run the car easy for the first few miles/kilos and keep the revs sedate until the gear oil warms up. Some cars are so bad you actually bypass second until it warms up. Synthetic gear oils help a lot but are not a perfect cure.
I can't tell for sure from your photos but the synchro collar doesn't look that bad to me. Some rounding of the "teeth" is not unusual and doesn't impair function. Test your synchros. Push and twist the synchro against its angled seat on the gear. It should tighten and lock, and not go all the way on. As the synchro wears, it travels further up the angled seat until it "bottoms" without gripping.
Lastly, I hate to keep repeating this, but NG transaxles are physically larger and have physically larger parts. They do not interchanged with the 336/352/365/395 series. Best to find another 395 transaxle for parts. Even then there are different versions and some parts may not interchange.
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Hi jb,
I must admit that I ignored your warning and bought the NG3 gearbox from my post on Thursday. You are right that the gearboxes are very different. The two half-housings are quite similar, but the fifth gear cover and mechanism are completely different. The NG3's rear end is much bigger. The internals are also quite different as the bevel gear shaft has different toothing to my 395, thus most of the parts are not useable in the 395.
But I was lucky with the synchronizer part for gears 1 & 2, which got jammed and damaged in my gearbox. It's one of the very few parts that fit from the from the NG3 into my 395. Hence, I'm able to convert two gearboxes into one. :pirate: I choose to use my original 395, because that always worked, I checked the parts and the housing matches my suspension supports. Also the NG3 housing is somehow twisted (at least not straight).
Here are some pics:
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Wow, that's lucky indeed. Time for a visit to the proctologist to check for horse-shoes in the nether regions