Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Lotus supplies on Friday,February 14, 2020, 01:14:34 PM
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We are looking at having a batch of original style twin cam wheels made.Would anybody be interested as we want to make sure there is enough call for them before we go ahead, they would be around £175 a wheel would ideally like to sell them as a set of 4.
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That would be a very realistic price. Where were you two years ago when I had mine restored........
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I just refinished mine as well, a tedious job to get all the old paint off and mask it.
I'd suggest you look into the design of the new wheel, specifically the issue of balancing them. I believe I read that the original wheels were lug-centric, that is, the lug bolt diameter was the center of the wheel. The hub opening in the wheel was not always the "center" leading to difficulties in balancing the wheel on modern hub locating balancing machines. I know that several folks on the board have had difficulties in balancing original Brand Lotus alloy wheels. Might as well try to fix an issue if you are fabricating new wheels.
Larry
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If we're making design suggestions, I would say that instead of the stock lug nuts, as pretty as they are with their washers, design the wheels for tapered nuts with steel inserts.
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Are tapered nuts available for 3/8 studs?
I changed to 12mm studs from a Land Rover Freelander with Ford Probe GT nuts. Inexpensive and readily available.
If you are making "Lotus look" wheels you might consider altering the profile slightly to make fitting disc brakes easier. The rear wheels have the least clearance. I am using Wilwood Forged Dyna-Lite calipers and they will not fit in Lotus wheels. I have BWA alloys.
A 260 x 20mm vented disc in front with the FDL caliper has less than 1/16" clearance with the Lotus wheel.
A 256 x 9mm solid disc in the rear has 1/8" interference with the Lotus wheel.
The rear caliper would probably have to be a single piston sliding frame type to clear the Lotus wheel.
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Hey if I am going to have a wish list. It would be great is the Original Lotus Brand wheels could be made in a larger size to accommodate low profile tires while maintaining the original style.
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Hey Lotus Supplies. I would be in for 14” Lotus clone wheels (same offset) with tapered lug nuts for centering.
These wheels would take care of the wheel centering problem, tire availability limitation with 13” wheels and allow Room for rear disc brakes, while keeping the original look.
Would these wheels be cast or forged?
Thanks.
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Hi,
I am certainly interested in an original style wheel that would take a lower profile 14" tire, the 13" tires are limited in supply and from few manufacturers it seems.
If you decide to go in this direction LMK.
Thanks!
Bart.
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They are looking for expressions of interest in new, original specification, alloy wheels.
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I know that JB. However, I am interested in 14” wheels to fix the problems with 13” oem wheels.
I don’t have interest in 13”oem wheels. I already have them.
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Same for me, I have the 13" wheels that are waiting for the time to be refurbished, and if there were 14" ones available I'd take them. I know its taking away some of the originality of the car, but I've already moved there with electronic ignition, electric fuel pump and Webbers etc.
Bart
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If you are going to go with a non-original Reproduction, "why not" go with one that improves upon the original while maintaining the design integrity of the OEM. But as others have said, I already own the OEMs, but I would like a low profile tire.
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maybe our petition should be to the tire companies?....to make a low profile option, as well as OEM sizes
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In the UK you can get lower profiles than the 70 series in 13" tyres, but from what I can see they're mainly 60 series tyres. And to get the same diameter as the 185/70 you'll need somewhere around 205/60 (which you can get) and even that's a touch smaller on diameter. As most of you guys know, I went to 15" wheels to get a low profile and better choice of tyres, plus of course more space for larger disc brakes.
This will sound extremely negative but I doubt there's the market to re-introduce the Europa alloy. If you're going after the owner who wants originality then it's the TC & TCS market and on "how many left ?" there were roughly 80 TCS, 90TC cars registered in the UK. (forum member Alex has the lion's share of the TCS ;) ) It's not a big market to go at. International sales would increase that of course, but there's added cost to the buyer and not every restoration is aimed at 100% originality - just look at us lot on this forum !
I can see the desire for a new 13" wheel and I suppose it depends what the minimum production run is required. The price isn't unreasonable (£700/set ?) compared with modern car alloys so that's not a deal breaker, it's just how many folks would buy them. When someone finally re-cast the TC head there was a pent-up demand already, but that head can sell to Lotus Elan/Elan+2/Europa and Ford owners so it's got a much larger market.
In conclusion I really, really DON'T want to pour cold water on anyone for re-introducing parts or supporting our cars, I'm very pleased that someone is even considering the project. What I wouldn't like is to see a stockpile of unsold wheels though, that doesn't help anyone.
Brian
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maybe our petition should be to the tire companies?....to make a low profile option, as well as OEM sizes
There are tires available, it seems no one likes paying the premium price to play with the right sized tires. Petitioning the tire companies is just going to increase your choice of expensive tires, not a glut of cheap tires because non of the OEM manufacturers use those sizes anymore. My recommendation is to run the Avon CR6ZZ, they are a fantastically balanced tire for Loti. My plus 2 is a dream to drive on them and they have a good period correct tread pattern to top it off and available in all the right sizes.
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I was playing around with the idea of getting a quote on alternate diameter Lotus alloys with the tapered lug nut attachment.
I did a comparison of the sizes and tire availability. I am only talking about the tc, since I don’t know anything about the S1 and S2 cars.
If the 205/60-13 R and 185/60-13 F are the desired tire sizes, then the closest sizes in 14” would be 205/55-14 and 185/55-14. Unfortunately, there were only two tires on Tirerack available in 205/55-14 and two in the 185/55-14
However, there are many many tire options in 195/50-15 and 205/50-15 sizes.
For reference
The stock 185/70-13 dia is 23.2 and the width is 7.3”
The stock 175/70-13 dia 22.6” and the width is 6.9”
The 205/60-13 dia is 22.7” and the width is 8.1”
The 205/50-15 dia is 23.1 and the width is 8.1”
The 185/60-13 dia is 21.7” and the width is 7.3”
The 195/50–15 dia is 22.7” and the width is 7.7”
I have read on the forum that others have run the 205/50-15 and 195/50-15 combination without clearance issues.
Do others agree that 5.5” wide by 15” wheels are the best option to remake Lotus alloys?
I know the bolt circle is 4x 3.75”. I don’t know the offset of the standard Lotus alloy wheel. Does anyone out there know?
There are a number of companies out there that make custom wheels. I will just put a bid spec together and see what the cost would be.
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The problem with tires is there are few cars with 13” wheels. In 1986 when I bought my Europa, there were dozens of tire options. Now, not so many. In 5 years, who knows?
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I have low profile tires now. 205/60-13 on the rear and 185/60-13 on the front. But my speedometer if off because it was factory calibrated for 70 series/13 tires. The base wheel on any new small car today (Honda Fit, Mini Cooper, Ford Fiesta ect.) is a 15" rim. And even those new small cars today can be "factory" optioned with a 16" or even a 17". A 15" wheel for the Europa would guarantee tire availability in a variety of driving applications for the next 50 years.
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If you are unwilling or unable to go to a bigger wheel, there are some tire vendors that cater to vintage cars. For example: https://www.performanceplustire.com and https://simpletire.com/.
I think 15" wheels are the best option otherwise. The selection is a lot better, I'm not aware of any interference issues, and there is more room for better brakes. I have 205/50-15 on the rear and they are very close in diameter to the stock 185/70-13. I should say that I have noticed some variability in what is available for even 15" wheels but even with that variability, the availability is still much better than for 13" wheels.
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Do others agree that 5.5” wide by 15” wheels are the best option to remake Lotus alloys?
I know the bolt circle is 4x 3.75”. I don’t know the offset of the standard Lotus alloy wheel. Does anyone out there know?
Tim Engel has been quite helpful on this in the past, from one of his posts;
Offset directly affects the scrub radius, and that's one of the more important dimensions that affects steering precision, feel and feedback. People tend to blow-off offset like it doesn't matter, but it does... more than width.
+1.094" (+27.8 mm) = Lotus steel wheel offset
+0.984" (+25.0 mm) = 15x6" Rota RB alloy (Minilite clone) offset
+0.812" (+20.6 mm) = Triumph Spitfire Mk IV steel wheel offset
+0.637" (+16.2 mm) = Lotus alloy wheel offset
. . . . . . . . . .= 0.457" (11.6 mm) larger scrub radius
+0.630" (+16.0 mm) = 13x6" Panasport alloy wheel offset
Mine are 15x6J, 30mm offset and run 205/50 & 195/50 tyres which is pretty much bang on the diameters of the OEM 185/70x13 & 175/70x13. Clearance is plenty on the rear, "tight but do-able" on the front.
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Once again Europa TC: Thanks for that great info! Twice you've helped me in the same week. :beerchug: I just wish that someone would make a 15" that looks like the Lotus Brand 13" OEM. You and BDA's tire set-up really is the way to go. I love my Toyo Proxes R888R 205/60R-13 rear and 185/60R-13 front but I know I the same tire in a larger size would handle better. Is there anybody else besides me that would buy a Lotus Brand style alloy wheel in a size 15"?
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I'm not in the market for wheels but I agree with you 'madness. A 15" wheel makes more sense but it would require a little more design work than 13" wheels would and as Brian suggested, it would probably be a short run and profitability might be challenging.
Having said that, I'd love to see it and hopefully it would be financially feasible.
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I think I have the info to put together a bid package. We’ll see how the price turns out.
Does anyone want to guess at how many would buy a set at say $1000?
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Thinking about it some more, I think it makes more sense to make 15" wheels than 13" wheels. There would probably be few who want new 13" wheels but there are probably a lot more who would want to upgrade to 15" wheels.
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The Europas I have seen with 15" rims really look incredible. They have a slightly modern edge look without losing any of the original vintage appeal. BDA's car and Europa TC's are case in point. They both look great. There are a few that are wearing 15" Panasports on the forum that also look great. A 15" works well without spoiling the integrity of the design. I think the Lotus Brand style would also crossover well in a 15".
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Ok everyone. I need to ballpark the quantity to get a quote. Please everyone, who would be interested in a set of 15” Lotus style rims.
Thanks
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Hi,
I'd be up for a set of 4.
Thanks,
Bart.
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This thread is now officially a mess.. Does Bart want 4 original wheels as per the first post in this thread? Or 4 of Mr P. Freen's wheels?
Please do not hijack threads. Start a new one and avoid confusion.
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Jb. There are so many things I could say to you but I won’t.
If anybody is interested in Lotus 15” wheels, please contact me. I will be getting a quote.
I have tried over the past years (since 2016) on this forum to pass on what I have learned about my Lotus Europa during my 34 years of Lotus ownership and 42 years as an automotive engine engineer.
However, social media is not my place.
Good luck everyone with your cars. I will be happy to talk to anyone on the forum individually if they want to and help where I can. Just not in this format.
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I don't see how it would appear to anybody that this thread was high-jacked. Lotus Supplies posed the question is there a demand for reproduction Lotus Brand wheels. Some commented the demand was too small to be practical, while others like myself felt it might be more practical to reproduce the Lotus Brand in a larger size and one without the drawbacks of the original. If "Lotus Supplies" could do that great, but if they did not then perhaps it would be possible to seek an alternative solution. Which Pfreen did! But to insult Pfreen in a accusatory manner was unnecessary and unjustifiable. This forum lost a knowledgeable and helpful member over something that seems rooted in dispirited animosity for reasons unknown.
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Oh boy. Everybody chill.
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My apologies. No criticism of Pfreen's plan to source 15" wheels. They would be very useful for many of our fellow listers.
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I want to say this has been an interesting thread and I like the enthusiasm for up sized original rims as I usually love that look, I have that on my Chrysler 300C after all.
I think what JB is getting at is the forum etiquette, which is if your conversation doesn't directly relate to the original posters topic, i.e. a group buy/demand pole for OE replicas in 13" we probably should have started a new thread. This helps the original poster not think they have been hijacked and not heard also it allows for better archiving, the thread title then clearly describes the ensuing discussion. In the case of technical information it doesn't get buried deep in an obscure thread. I don't think anyone was pointing fingers it is easy to go sideways especially as our group grows and I have been culprit at times as well. It really was just a statement that we have allowed things to get far from the OPs topic.
Cheers,
Ross
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I thought it was quite simple ....if you would like Original 13" alloys ....respond to Europa Supplies .......Non 13" are not original so Fit what ever you like ....simples
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Lotus Supplies asked if there was a "call" for a batch of original "Lotus Style" wheels. There was no mention of specs or size. The same way mini-lites are a style...the question seemed open to interpretation and discussion within the frame of the thread. Suggestions were all made in regards to what might be an improved version of a "Lotus Style" wheel. Since "13" was not mentioned in the question as a prerequisite to the answer, I once again fail to see how the "proposal of a larger wheel" high-jacked this thread or failed to comply with forum etiquette. For what it is worth, I am a Forensic Linguistics professor by occupation and always choose my words carefully, as do I read carefully others' words as not to misinterpret "them." There are ways of saying things and ways not to. Pfreen quit the forum because he felt insulted. JBcollier apologized and I respect JB for that. I hope pfreen one day returns to the forum. He is a retired automotive engineer from BMW who owns several of their patents and contributed a wealth of information to this forum. For the record, I don't need an education in what is "simples."
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Over the last several years on this forum I have been “redirected” a few times to start a new thread on a subject that ended up going in a different direction from the original post. I never took offense to that and mostly understood why.
This website has got to have the most respectable enthusiasts/people on it I have ever experienced. I am confident no one ever means to be critical, especially JB who is a wealth of information and sage advice.
Pfreen, I hope you see this in the light for which it is meant.
If we were all in a bar together I’d buy everybody drinks and hit the reset button.
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Here here!
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Marines are taught to be able to overcome any obstacle, which serves them well in the chaos of combat. This concept is encapsulated in the Marine slogan “Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome”, which is a mindset that allows Marines to deal with any physical, mental, or spiritual hardship.
Like Cert and BDA said...Semper Fi!
Now, if any of you are looking for a set of original TC alloys in need of refinishing I'll sell them cheap to get this thread back on track. And don't give me any **** for not posting this in the classifieds.
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Yumpin' Yiminey! How did this go sideways all of a sudden? This is the first hint of discord I've seen in my 2.5 years on this forum! I read no disrespect in JB's post suggesting a new thread. Come back Paul (pfreen)! We need you!
Tom