Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Fotog on Tuesday,January 28, 2020, 08:17:43 AM
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I changed the oil and put in 9 pints as the manual calls for. The level now is significantly above the 'full' mark on the dipstick. About 3/4 inch. should I be concerned, or is it just some problem with the dipstick that I shouldn't worry about?
Vince
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assume you ran the engine to get the filter filled up w/ oil before measuring?
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Yes, I did.
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I think it's better to fill the filter up before installing it - but to your main issue, if you put in the correct amount of oil (and assuming there are no changes that would change that amount like, for example, a different oil pan), I would trust your measurement over the dipstick. Assuming your dipstick is seated in a repeatable place, I would mark your stick to show the actual full mark. Something else that is important, but I'm not sure how you would test this, is that the crank not swing into your oil. You'll lose power and froth up your oil making it less effective.
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. Something else that is important, but I'm not sure how you would test this, is that the crank not swing into your oil. You'll lose power and froth up your oil making it less effective.
. Hmmm. Thanks for your thoughts. I thought that an excessive oil level was potentially a problem, but I didn't know what that problem might be. If anybody has further thoughts, I'm all eyes.
I do recall seeing some previous thread with some discussion about an inaccurate dipstick.
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I did the same as you and remarked the dipstick. The level on mine is about 1/2” above the standard level. I reconfirmed the level as correct when I pulled the engine and oil pan. I checked after running the engine and filling the oil filter
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How much higher than the mark on the dipstick?
Do you know the history of the engine? Stock oil pan? Stock dipstick? Stock oil filter? No spin-on conversion?
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It seems I may have an explanation...... or a further problem.
1 US pint = 0.832674 UK pints.
9 US pints = 7.49 UK pints.
Therefore 9 UK pints would equal 10.80 US pints.
Just so we are comparing like with like, are your measurements both in the same US or UK scale?
Just asking.............
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Assuming that the correct amount of oil was added per the manual, has anyone else experienced oil starvation on long sweeping fast corners (freeway on ramps). I'm suspecting my dipstick level is indicating a false normal level when actual level is slightly low. As far as I know, my engine has never been rebuilt so the dipstick tube was installed at the factory.
With my engine currently in the beginning of its rebuild, is there a way to verify that the dipstick tube is in the correct position. There's not much guidance in the Miles Wilkens book in this regard. During the engine tear down, I'll see how much damage the oil starvation issue caused to the bearings.
Also the factory manual specifies 9 US pints or 7.5 pints (UK?)
Joji Tokumoto
Fallbrook, Ca
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It seems I recently read that Twin Cam oil pan should be baffled to prevent oil
Starvation especially in right hand turns....I will see if can find where I read it later.
Preferably dry sump. Perhaps an Accusump would be a worthwhile investments?
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When you take your engine apart, it will be clear to you what the oil level should be. You will also be able to see what the dipstick is measuring. Basically, the oil level should be as high as possible but never allow the crankshaft to dip in the oil.
I also welded in a Kelvedon sump baffle to prevent losing oil pressure during fast cornering. This is the same as the one RD sells. I am not a super racer in my car, but I have not lost oil pressure during fairly fast cornering. It seemed like the best compromise between it and and an accusump or a dry sump for my car.
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How much higher than the mark on the dipstick?
Do you know the history of the engine? Stock oil pan? Stock dipstick? Stock oil filter? No spin-on conversion?
It's close to 3/4 in. above the full mark.
Regarding history, the engine was rebuilt sometime before I bought the car with 54,000 miles on it 34 years ago (as a foolish young man) and I really don't know any details about what was done, except that it has some sort of Iskenderian cam in it. I have only put a couple of miles on it since pulling it out of retirement six or so months ago.
The oil filter is stock. Dipstick certainly appears to be original, and the oil pan looks like it would be stock.
Other things about the car tell me that it was not treated with loving care, so I would think an upgraded or modified oil pan was unlikely.
No spin-on conversion.
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It seems I may have an explanation...... or a further problem.
1 US pint = 0.832674 UK pints.
9 US pints = 7.49 UK pints.
Therefore 9 UK pints would equal 10.80 US pints.
Just so we are comparing like with like, are your measurements both in the same US or UK scale?
Just asking.............
I don't think there's any problem there. The manual calls for 9 US pints, and that's how much I put in.
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No spin-on conversion.
I assume what you mean is there is no oil filter conversion and you still have the original spin-on oil filter. I didn't think any Europa, and certainly a TC, had anything but!
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On second thoughts, just the very earliest TC engines had a canister filter with an internal replaceable element.
There are different length versions of the oil filter. Is yours a short one?
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No, the filter is a normal one. Fram PH3600. 4.9 in. long.
I wasn't sure offhand what "spin on conversion" meant, but I know there's no adapter or anything there. It's just a normal oil filter connection. I understand now.
Vince
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Good.
Drain the oil until it registers correctly on the dipstick. How much "extra" oil is there?
I think probably the dipstick tube was knocked in further, or not reinstalled correctly during the rebuild. I would simply remark the dipstick.
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Ok. I'll do that in the next day and report back.. I re-checked, and it's 5/8 above the FULL mark.
I drove it for 10 minutes after filling it and the pressure was about 40 PSI, which is at the high end of the range specified. If it's too full and frothing, would I expect the pressure to go up?
Thanks for your counsel.
-V
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I wish! The pressure goes down.
Oil levels are spec-ed to be well clear of the crank. There is usually a margin of error worked in because many people add a full litre/quart/what-have-you when only the half is required. If the oil level is actually too high, the crank will "whip" the oil into a shiny air/oil emulsion. This mix doesn't pump nor lubricate very well.
Generally manufacturers are carefully to post alarming notices if the oil level is absolutely critical. My diesel Smart has various "do not overfill" notices in bright red. My Disco does not and has been a 1/2 litre over on occasion with no ill effects.
If you went for a brisk drive and the oil looked clear on the dipstick, I think it's just fine.
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All good info. Thank you, JB. In some brief googling about the topic at hand, it was written somewhere that the emulsion was 'thick', which led me to think that the pressure might rise. But logically, I think that's probably not a good characterization of the result. It will maybe be less thin, but also lower density. I don't think pressures should go up.
Anyway, I'll check it out. See how much it is over-filled according to the dipstick, which is probably not reading correctly. My first level-check was after my drive, and it looked clear on the dipstick, so that's good, but truthfully, it wasn't so brisk.
-V
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I'm finally responding here with what I found out. I removed enough oil such that it reads "full" on the dipstick, and found that I had to remove 28 oz. That's quite a bit! I thought all was ok as, realistically, why shouldn't it take the 9 pints specified?.... and after driving it the oil still looked clear (no frothing) on the dipstick.
The car has been driven very little since I first started it (after 30 years) 6 or so months ago. About 15 mi. total. But I noticed that I'm getting a bit of oil leakage from the fuel pump now that I didn't have before the oil change. I was thinking it was from a leak at the flange, but maybe there's a weep hole there. I'll have to go back and look.
Any further thoughts or suggestions about this?
Thanks, Vince
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Is the dipstick tube inserted correctly (if too deep or even missing, you'd register high)? Attached is a page from an Elan manual - it may not be specifically useful if the sump on the Europa is different than the Elan, but the point is that the tube can be mis-inserted on rebuild and cause mis-reading.
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I’ve owned three Lotus Elan’s and one Lotus Europa, all with Ford twin cam Weber head engines and stock oil pans. All of them had small variances on the dip stick of what “full” was. I always put the factory spec amount of oil in the engine (filling the filter first) then running the engine for a few minutes. Shut engine off and come back 30 minutes later and note level on the dipstick identifying what the full line is. The only real variable is a short or long oil filter, but that is easily accounted for.
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Usually mechanical fuel pumps have a weep hole. If oil is coming out then first check the breather pipes and make sure they are clear.
Time for some brutally honesty. It is not unusual for Lotus TC engines to leak oil. I'm not saying you can't build a leak free engine, just that Lotus seems to have gone out of their way to make it very difficult to do. Aside of all the extra joints due to a TC head being fitted to a pushrod engine, the engine is also only marginally vented. It doesn't take much piston wear to make more blow-by that the breather system can handle. Once the crankcase starts pressurizing, they leak from seemingly everywhere.
Any way, all that to say check the breather is clear. Lift the oil filter cap off while it's running. Place your hand on the opening and rev the engine. Feel any pressure?
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I think your dip stick tube may be worn and letting it go lower? In Brian Buckland Lotus Elan book he recommends replacing the tube at every rebuild. With my Lotus I add an extra Quart of oil for a track day or across to stop the oil drop in hard right turns and never hard a problem.
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Thanks guys for all your thoughts and suggestions. I can tell you that the tube protrudes above the block by 2.85 in. If it were to protrude enough to show full with my 9 pints, it would have to be 3.50 in. long. I don't think it's worn, but may be inserted too far. The top of it is about an inch below the location of my brake light pressure switch, for what that's worth.
The info from the Elan engine assembly instructions was interesting, but I don't find similar detail in the Europa manual.
I will check to make sure that the crankcase breather is open, but I haven't done so yet.
Things are not real pretty in that area. See the picture.
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That's actually pretty good.
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Oh, great!😊
Glad to know that.
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Sorry to keep coming back to this, but I realize that I'm not quite satisfied that things are ok. So two things:
1) John: I didn't report back, but I don't sense any excessive crankcase pressure when I open the oil filler. The breather consists of a hose with a filter on the end about 2.5 in. in diameter. Filter seems clear enough, but I washed it in hot water and detergent. With it off or on, things seem quite clear at the end of that hose. When I put my hand over the open oil filler and revved the engine, I didn't get significant extra pressure.
Also, there is no weep hole at the fuel pump. I got a new spacer (like a 1/4 in. thick gasket, req'd for a twin-cam pump mounting) that I'll install. The old one was less than perfect when I re-installed the pump after rebuilding, so even though I didn't expect it to leak, It's not out of the question.
2) Could some nice TC owner or two please give me a measure of the length of their dipstick tube above the block. It would give me a lot of comfort to hear what others see on their similar cars that are thought to be correct. I would appreciate it.
I put 20w50 in the car and until it warms up I'm seeing about 60 psi oil pressure. That seems quite high, but I don't know if that's a problem. I don't remember what I saw under similar conditions (cold) before I changed the oil, and I don't know what grade was in it. I think warm it was showing about 30-40 psi. I was not concerned. Now I'm seeing in the 40+ range warm. I've had some leaking at the camshaft seal adjacent to the alternator drive pulley all along. It seems to be worse now in that vicinity, and I'm wondering if maybe it's coming from the head there. Maybe it's just paranoia. I'll tell ya, I'm looking much more critically at everything including the gauge now.
I will re-torque the head bolts.
Vince
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Breather sounds good to me. Hopefully the new spacer will do the trick. Clean everything meticulously, wipe all the surfaces with thinner or isopropyl alcohol, apply a light smear of oil-proof silicone sealer, put it all back together and let it sit for a few hours to set up.
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My dip stick tube on TC special protrudes 2.85”, so the same as yours. I have just fitted a top baffle in the sump pan as I was getting a drop in oil supply under heavy breaking if the oil level was not showing full on the dip stick. I haven’t checked the capacity yet, but will do on re-fill. As I have currently the sump off it appears that the full dip stick mark is about 7/8” below the crank and big ends at the bottom of travel.
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Are the dipsticks the same length to the stop?
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Should they not be?
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Thanks, Buzzer. That's good information, but of course I was hoping that I seem to have an excess of oil when I fill it with the specified 9 pints because my dipstick tube is shorter than normal. But maybe that's not the case; it's about the same length as yours. I'll be interested to hear from you how much it takes to fill yours when you do it.
Are the dipsticks the same length to the stop?
That's a good question. I'll measure mine today and report back.
Vince
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I measure my dipstick as 225 mm / 8-7/8 in. From the full mark to the point where it seats against the tube.
-V
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I attached two photos of my dipstick. My dipstick may have been modified from the original dipstick during the Coolaire AC installation by the dealer. i am not sure. It looks like the one on the RD website.
The first photo shows the mark I made (next to the last L on FULL)on the dipstick when I filled the engine with 9 us pints and the engine run for 5 minutes and set for an hour.
I cannot get to my dipstick tube because it is under the AC compressor. I could not tell or remember what stops the dipstick in the tube.
Also, the dipstick is bent slightly to slide through a hole in the oil pan baffle I have welded in my oil pan. The baffle is the same on sold by RD and Kelvedon in England.
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I cannot get to my dipstick tube because it is under the AC compressor. I could not tell or remember what stops the dipstick in the tube.
Thanks for those pictures. Assuming that your tube is similar to mine, it has a flare at the top. The sharp u-bend (kink) in the dipstick rests against that flare. I circled that on your dipstick in the photo below. I also marked the full mark of your dipstick, and I see ~8-15/16 in. between the resting point and the full mark. That's very close to the 8-7/8 in. I measure on mine.
For you, 9 pints brings the level to about 1/2 in. above the 'full' mark.
On mine, 9 pints brings it to 5/8 above the full mark.
So, 1/8 higher on mine. Not a big difference.
All this assuming that the dipstick tubes are the same length. Who knows?... but it was good (I suppose) to know that Buzzer's is the same length as mine.
Right now I have 8-1/2 pints in it. If I ever drive it farther than around the block, I'll keep an eye on things and see if all continues to look good; then maybe go for 9. :-)
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My dipstick 8 13/16 in length so close to 8 7/8
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I meant to say: Thanks, Dave. Another piece of data. But it all seems to add up to say that I have a bit of a mystery, as it looks like my dipstick and tube are probably near average dimensions yet the engine appears to be over-full by 28 oz. That's with the specified 9 US pints of oil.
Vince