Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Richard H on Saturday,October 19, 2019, 07:26:35 AM
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:newhere:Well, actually hi to some of you, the rest will recognise me from a few years on the Yahoo site.
I'm UK based, Shrewsbury for those who live over here, and a I confess a very long time Europa owner, nearly 43 years, the same S2 type 54. Now retired from my job as a mechanical engineer the Europa has long been relegated from daily driver to hobby and continues to keep the technical side of the brain active.
Changes over the years
Engine 697 > 843 > + EFI > MGF 1.8VVC
Gearbox 336 > 395 > NG3-099
Suspension now has radius arm supplanting the driveshaft as upper link, otherwise quite standard layout with marginally stiffer springs and Protech dampers.
Brakes now vented discs at the front and solid MGF sourced discs at the back with 2psi residual pressure valve in line
A plywood splitter at the front has proved very effective at keeping the nose down
An undertray at the rear with diffuser is as yet mainly untested, been very busy extending my workshop and there's not been time.
Miscellaneous stuff includes a very thorough review of the steering compromising:
Replaced the rubber grommet based UJ with a steel one
Carefully adjusted the steering rack preload, only to discover it really needs a redesign per the TCS rack. Long story, too long.
Fitted spacers between the front hub taper roller bearings, this stopped the car tramlining on road imperfections also removing an elusive rattle.
MGF 15" wheels with 195-50-15 tyres, wheels centred on spigots added to hubs
Done one club Lotus track day at Castle Combe, but otherwise it's a road plaything
That's about it, looking forward to exchanges, I see there are one or two members not far from me, makes a change from most being an ocean apart.
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:Welcome: Richard!
It sounds like you've done some very interesting development work on your car! I know I speak for everybody here when I say that we'd love to see some pictures! Many people have a problem resizing their pictures for the forum so there's an explanation of one way to resize your pictures for the forum here: http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=1379.0
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:Welcome: There is a great camaraderie here on this forum and we love photos. Would love to see a pic of that MGF engine.
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I shall try and fulfil the request for pictures, glad literary asked about the engine, far and away the hardest change I've made, but very worth it. Weighs about the same as the Renault XF and produces 143bhp, huge difference.
It's always the same though, you're deep into the project of the day, for example the engine swap and you think, must take a picture. Then years later you look at the pic and realise all the rubbish in the background, but that aside hopefully I'll get the hang of the method and more than I wanted to reveal, will be revealed :)
The pic of the car is a few years old, it's gained some features since.. most of them positive.
The pic of the engine/gearbox outside the car also shows the dummy plywood chassis, essential to ensure everything fits
Then there's the installed pics, always look at the dirty chassis and wish it was all shiny following a full rebuild, can't have everything I guess..
OK, the preview doesn't seem to show the attachments, I'll hit send anyway and well see how it goes :-\
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It worked :)
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Correction, the photo of the car is more recent than I thought, only the diffuser is missing, it's quite subtle anyway
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This is the first time I've heard of an MGF engine swap! Another to add to the list!
It looks very nicely done and I like the wheels! Congratulations on a very pretty car!
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Very nice! You must have acquired it around the same time I acquired mine, it will be 43 years in a few months, but mine is a TC and I've made only very minor modifications.
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And about time to !!!!
Welcome Richard, good to see you've finally got on here..... ;)
Brian
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Hello Richard,
I'm new on here too, I'm based between Stafford and Uttoxeter so not so very far away. My car is however a long way off being on the road yet :D
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And the valve cover even says Twin Cam, how perfect is that. :beerchug:
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Hi Brian, yes, it took awhile. I have occasionally dipped in as a spectator, maybe I can offer something useful now.
Arizona, I acquired mine on 21 Jan 1977. Commuted 25 miles each way to work in it, it was a whole month before I got there without stopping for running repairs, mainly due to catching up on neglected maintenance, DPOs eh?
Broadside, keep at it, it's worth it
literary, Twin-cam? >:( :) we in the [ex] Renault fraternity are quite defensive of the old A-series ;) Having said that the K-series is much quieter.. until the VVC kicks in that is..
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:Welcome:
Richard .
Very nice S2 . You have taken great care of it from the pictures and it seems you have a lot of time invested. We definitely would like more details on your mods.
Dakazman
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Of course it is 16V and an MGF engine and nothing to do with the Lotus head/Ford block engine, but I thought it was cool seeing it inscribed on the engine because the term Twin Cam is so synonymous with Lotus.
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yes, I knew that literary, but old debates die hard in the Europa community :)
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Dakazman... which mods, I don't want to bore for Britain on stuff you're not interested in..
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I don't think many of us would be bored. A lot of us are interested in any mods done to Europas!
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OK, well, in order of payback/effort, I would rank my changes as follows.
1) front wheel bearing spacers. Large improvement in straight line stability in return for about a day spent tinkering on a lathe cutting a little off at a time until bearing clearance was correct.
2) the plywood splitter under the nose. £6 worth of 6mm marine ply, a length of PVC drain pipe to make the blend piece and about a day to fit it all.
3) the all-steel steering UJ, with the proviso that you check the internal splines are properly formed, mine weren't.
4) the 2psi residual pressure valve in the brake line, cured all that uncertainty with a long brake pedal travel. Nice and hard now.
5) modern tyres on 15" wheels. Helps over in UK that there is a plentiful supply of MGF wheels, and they chopped and changed designs a lot, so you're not forced to go with one style. I chose the one that looked nearest to the Elise wheel. Big increase in grip.
6) creating spigots for wheel location. Wheel vibration now respectably controlled. Not easy to achieve however, I've attached a picture of front and rear spigots. The PIA factor comes in setting the spigot suitably concentric tot the hub, about 0.001" TIR. Then you realise every time you disturb them, the same procedure has to happen all over again. Also found balance shops don't necessarily set the wheel to the spigot bore, so I made my own static trimming mandrel, see pic. One of the reasons why this is a long way from my #1 recommendation, it needs tools and time. Maybe one of those ebay balancers might work, I thought my answer was better.
7) rear discs, quite a lot of work, but the car needed a bit more rear brake and in these days of all the other cars having ABS, I didn't want to get caught out running into the back of someone in an emergency braking situation, front wheels locked and smoking. Especially true in the wet.
The VVC engine BTW is great, but massive effort and only for the really committed. The Renault XF swap was a weekend job IIRC, as compared to 2-3 months for the VVC motor.
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Hi Richard.
I took your advice and machined front bearing spacers, and I also installed alloy front axles.
I did multiple things at once so I can’t say it fixed all the stability problems, but my car, a tcs, is rock steady at speed. I appreciate your advice.
So, welcome to this forum, and I think the format is much easier to use than the yahoo forum.
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I did the bearing spacer thing because I was trying to track down an annoying clonk from the LH front suspension over bumps. Imagine my surprise when the car went from feeling a bit 1970s and wayward to absolutely rock steady at speed. I'd say it's pretty much as stable as my Seat Leon now... who knew?
The clonk also disappeared..
They only fit such unspaced taper bearing arrangements to trailers in the UK these days.. enough said.
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Lovely car with interesting modifications.
As a driver of a K-series Exige I always thought the engine might be a perfect fit for the Europa. It's very light and the VVC has a nice power delivery curve. Good choice.
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" front wheel bearing spacers. Large improvement in straight line stability in return for about a day spent tinkering on a lathe cutting a little off at a time until bearing clearance was correct."
Make the spacer a bit undersize and use wheel bearing shims from an MGB to dial it in perfectly.
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What sun roof did you use? Mine is a Webasto Hollandia 300 medium.
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The sun roof went in back in 1985, my memory doesn't stretch back that far.
Actually I wish I'd simply refurbished the fabric folding one that it replaced, much more useful as it turned out. Back in the early days it once saw a second passenger astride the centre tunnel with head poking out in the wind. Rules were interpreted an bit more loosely in those days..
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Hello Richard,
:Welcome:
Mark
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Hi Richard,
Yay . . good to see you made it.
1) front wheel bearing spacers. Large improvement in straight line stability in return for about a day spent tinkering on a lathe cutting a little off at a time until bearing clearance was correct.
Yeah, and I've wondered how this works. Here's what goes on in my befuddled head.
I figure that in a stock set up there's probably ~ .004" end float (didn't look up the real number)
Given the bearings are tapered, that end float probably (?) permits a similar radial run out, yeah?
So, if the inner races are locked together with a spacer, do you still set the end float to .004"?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something because I can't see what difference it makes.
That said, I recognise the ability to more precisely control the end float because the stock castle nut necessitates using the closest slot for the split pin which is a bit rudimentary.
What am I missing?
Brakes now vented discs at the front and solid MGF sourced discs at the back . .
1. Is that a stock MGF disk on the rear?
Which calliper?
2. Could you expand on the origin/size of vented front discs and the calliper used?
Is there a need to space the calliper?
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Revington sells a bearing spacer kit for TR’s. This website explains how they work.
https://www.revingtontr.com/product/rtr3463k/name/spacer-kit-front-wheel-bearing
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A few front hub questions going on here from Paul and Gavin - good to be here!
The end float spec is 0.002"/0.004", hence the spacer has to accommodate this range when the castellated nut is tightened down. I erred to the lower end and also didn't do the nut up very tight. Rather than the instruction in the manual to release it by 60deg, one flat, I tightened it to the next position where the split pin could then be re-inserted.
The original objective here was to cure a suspension rattle remember, not to, as suggested by the Revington site, to stop it bending. I've not done the numbers but my experience with such situations is that no measurable bending would occur. but there is plenty of clearance in the bearing, especially after you've backed the nut off one flat. My rattle was also in part caused by a very poor diametral fit of the outer smaller race on the axle. Suggest the Revington kit or using JCs suggestion of MGB spacers would be the easiest approach if you don't have a lathe handy.
Because the taper angle in the bearing is shallow, the roller to race clearance will be much lower than the end float. Imagine in the limit of a pure cylindrical roller there would be no clearance and a pure thrust bearing, infinite radial clearance.
I reason that it stops the wheel moving in response to the contact patch being loaded in different places across the width of the tread, particularly when crossing a repair in the tarmac in the direction of driving. Lots of these about in the UK where utilities have dug the road up and repaired it afterwards. Moving the contact patch will move the way the hub aligns itself on the axle. Control the movement and immediately things are more stable. I imagine that's the reason modern car manufacturers design their hub bearings for an angular contact cartridge supplied by the bearing manufacturer ready to be pressed into the upright with no further adjustment required.
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Regarding the brakes Gavin.
I did the rear disc conversion first, it's exactly like the nice write-up Brian (EuropaTC) did a few years back, I did mine first and he did a rather neater version afterwards. The attraction of a really cheap pair NOS Renault Scenic calipers and pads swung the decision on piston and disc diameter, coming out pretty much spot on. The disc was standard and I needed to relieve the hub per Brian's description.
The front vented brake disc came later. It's from the small VW/Audi range and was originally specified for a Seat Arosa. Like these.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-Genuine-Comline-Front-Vented-Coated-Brake-Discs-Set-Pair-ADC1410V/143326653386?fits=Car+Make%3ASeat%7CModel%3AArosa&hash=item215eef2bca:g:DrUAAOSwVcFdJ0zP
It seemed very simple to start with. The disc height was about right, the diameter was about right and not too thick for a modified caliper. The hub could be easily modified to bolt the disc on the back like the Triumph one, as could the caliper carrier to move it out to accommodate the few mm extra diameter (239>256)and then I just needed to space the two halves of the caliper by a few mm with some ground steel bar to cater for the thicker disc. Simples yea? Well not really, it took a couple of days per side to sort it all IIRC, probably longer. Lots of little jobs...
Quite time consuming, I'm pretty sure there wasn't an obvious aftermarket solution which was why I went to the trouble, others may have greater luck, especially if they've not done the rear to suit the existing brake torque at the front, leaves more options open. My setup does still permit 13" wheel fitment however.
It has been tested in enthusiastic driving on the track, but given the lack of run-off at Castle Combe a bit of lift and coast was employed. In fairness they never started to smell, so they must be better than a solid disc of lesser mass. That was whilst holding a 190hp Toyota engined Elise 111R a decent distance behind.
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Hi Richard,
Thanks for the explanation.
The Revington blurb talks about strengthening the front stub axles and brake pad knock back. Given at least the later TR's had a heavy cast iron six over the wheels, the bending may be more of an issue for them.
I don't think I've experienced pad knock back; front brake fade, yes, but not pad knock back.
It also looks like that Revington kit is for the TR2-6, which uses the larger axles I think?
Couldn't find mention of a Spitfire/Herald kit on their site.
With all that said, I can see the move to modern low profile stickier tyres may be showing up the weakness of an older bearing system.
Yes, these modern cartridge type wheel bearings might be the ultimate fix . . and honestly, how difficult would it be for an enterprising lad with a lathe to make a couple of alloy hubs to accomodate those. :))
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Thanks for the rear brakes info.
I hadn't considered VW/Audi discs nor Scenic callipers probably because they're less common downunder, but those look good.
The Scenic callipers also look nicely compact.
What is the piston diameter?
My investigations are very much preliminary and I've yet to pick out 'sample' discs from the wreckers.
Mazda 929 discs appear to be candidates at 250mm dia. I also liked the idea of the modest thickness at 18mm where so many are 25mm. (spec below)
I knew a guy who worked at PBR many moons ago and he kindly gave me a rear calliper from a Nissan R31 Pintara/Skyline (pic below). It looks to have a doable handbrake arrangement.
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My trawl for parts went something like this..
Built the brake calculator spreadsheet that's now in the technical section, Bo Hellberg was a useful sounding board for my ideas.
Wanting to retain the front discs established the brake torque vs pedal effort required at the rear, also a desire to be able to fit 13" wheels should I wish to go back from the current 15" (unlikely TBH)
That established the disc diameter, a no-brainer in the end because the MGF was perfect for the job at 240mm and identical wheel stud centres
Going back to the calculator yielded a need for 34mm pistons, then it was a case of finding a suitable caliper. I think I put 'rear caliper' into ebay search and went through 'new' parts starting with the cheapest. This catalogue helped no end to identify whether they were suitable, link takes you to Scenic data.
http://www.brake-eng.com/en/catalogue/#market=gb&vehicleType=P&manufacturerId=93&modelId=4685&vehicleId=%7C15769%2CFront+Wheel+Drive+(02%2F01+-%3E+08%2F03%3B+80HP+%2F+59KW)&productGroupId=78
It's for UK vehicles but there will be some crossover with down under stuff I'm sure, it's a start anyway. It's how I knew the Scenic caliper would do the job, and they were ridiculously cheap, something like £72 for a pair with pads. There were plenty of other choices around the same size however. Sometimes the ebay list gives piston sizes, if not a seal repair kit usually gives that info to avoid sending the wrong part. Ebay pictures are definitely helpful.
It appeals to the hunter-gatherer in me to find this stuff.. ;)
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Gavin, just gone off to check my advice, yea I know, should have done that before, but anyway, some extra stuff. Most new calipers are sold without the mounting frame and sliding pins, so put either 'mount' or 'complete' into the search or you'll be there for awhile hitting the page down button.
As a for instance I found Mazda 323f calipers from 1998-03 that have a 35mm piston, slightly larger, but credible alternative that will lock the rears at about 1 g deceleration, only achievable on a dry road, the fronts would lock first in the wet.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAZDA-323f-REAR-BACK-BRAKE-CALIPER-98-03-NEW-INCLUDES-COMPLETE-SLIDING-BRACKET/370973420546?hash=item565fbd2c02%3Ag%3AwswAAMXQJ3xRc94N&LH_ItemCondition=1000%7C1500%7C2500
The MG/Rover ZS has 33mm pistons..
The Scenic caliper is fitted to loads of small Renaults actually, see compatible list on this ad
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRW-Brake-Caliper-Rear-Right-Renault-Megane-II-Twingo-II-Rear-Axle-BHQ246/351637244689?hash=item51df368b11%3Ag%3AcPQAAOSwleldjhgD&LH_ItemCondition=1000%7C1500%7C2500
Either way, the general rule is that a small disc will be fitted to a small or light car and can only accomodate a small piston. Large cars have large discs and large pistons, don't bother looking at them.
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Resurrecting the thread for a question.....
Richard, having read up on the spacers for the front hubs and having looked at a kit for the TRs I think I'd like to have a shot at this over winter. I'll probably go for an undersize spacer and make up with shims as per the TR kit I saw but it would be a big help if you could recall the size of the spacer you ended up with. It would save a fair bit of trial and error if I could start off with something that worked !
I appreciate it's a while ago you did it so if you've not got any notes that's fine, but it's always worth asking....
cheers
Brian
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Hi Brian, missed your post until just now..
My spacers were in fact a two piece affair because the inner and outer bearings are quite different IDs. Therefore I used a section of tube that matched, or near matched, the larger inner bearing ID of 1", with a separate top hat section that reduced that diameter to that of the outer smaller bearing.
The top hat section was shaped thus because IIRC the bearing roller cage protrudes beyond the face of the race and could contact the spacer if it moved as far as the float allowed, hope that's clear.
The whole exercise started as I said before as an attempt to cure a clonking noise and I never expected the bonus of much improved straight line stability. Had I realised at the time the documentation would have been much more complete given the number of owners that comment on wandering at speed.
John Collier mentioned the MGB kit also, however the spacer appears to be a larger diameter judging from the bearings
Spitfire https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-Wheel-Bearing-Kits-Front-FBK251-First-Line-Genuine-Top-Quality-Replacement/333382110700?fits=Car+Make%3ATriumph%7CModel%3ASpitfire&epid=1150435634&hash=item4d9f1f4dec:g:Io4AAOSwP-9du~Fm
MGB https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-First-Line-Front-Axle-Wheel-Bearing-Kit-FBK018/392526606305?epid=249350317&hash=item5b6468afe1:g:N5wAAOSwbY5dxn7l
Clearances within the hub will likely make the MGB spacer unusable as a basis for the Europa front bearings. The shims maybe, but make sure they cannot catch the bearing cage, rather use some of these
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-2mm-THICK-SHIM-WASHERS-HIGH-QUALITY-STEEL-DIN-988-ALL-SIZES/253288550927?hash=item3af92c920f:m:mL7tYo9RonYTvbphx9unn2w
Although a better fit could be achieved on a lathe
I don't know anything about the TR options, but they need to be close to correct otherwise they will foul somewhere, the fit is surprisingly close.
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Hi Richard, thanks for the info, that's something else to think about ! I hadn't thought that you may have a 2 piece spacer, I'd assumed that it was a single tube ground to suit but now you mention it I realised that there is quite a difference between the bearings.
I think the TR range uses similar uprights/stub axle/bearings to the Vitesse/GT6 range and they are bigger than the ones used on the Europa. It's a pity because they seem to be easily available and not badly priced for something that's fit & forget.
[url]https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triumph-TR2-TR3-TR4-4A-TR5-250-TR6-Front-Wheel-Bearing-Anti-Knock-Off-Spacer-Kit/183404904328?hash=item2ab3c8bf88:g:DL8AAOSw-ctbhnKz{/url]
Brian
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Brian,
The bearings for the TR range are the same as the Europa, but the spacing is different. The GT6/Vitesse bearings are different, but I seem to recall they use one of the MGB hub bearings. I wonder if the TR spacer could be reduced in length.
Rod
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Ah, now that's good info Rod, thanks for posting.
For no logical reason I'd always thought that the TRs would have had the bigger bearings of the Vitesse range as they're "gruff'n'tuff" real men's cars.... :)
The TR kits seem to vary wildly in prices and I've seen both stepped and tapered end designs. What has puzzled me though is that despite several google searches I've still not found anyone making a kit for the Spitfire which does surprise me. A popular car over here, plenty of brake and wheel "upgrades" going on so I expected to find a kit on the market.
Brian
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Richard had recommended to me the bearing spacers, so I designed my own. Shacktune used to make spacers for the Spitfire, but not any more. I pretty much copied their design, but I machined my spacers to length to provide 0.000 - 0.002 inches of bearing play instead of using shims.
Attached is a drawing of the spacer which is about 0.020" too long to provide stock to machine it shorter to provide the correct bearing play. If you were to use shims, you would make the spacer shorter and make up the difference with the shims. I made the spacer out of 1100 carbon steel, which machines easily and has a fairly high yield strength (100ksi) and is reasonably hard (Rc 25). I have not had any problems with them or the bearings.
I don't know if this fixed my high speed stability problems I used to have, but these spacers combined with alloy steel axles, and installing adjustable front A-arms and adjustable rear lower links to provide in-spec front and rear wheel alignment, made my car really enjoyable to drive at high speed.
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Canley Triumph offers uprated suspension, hub and brake kits for the Spitfire. The spindles and bearings in the alloy hubs are massive and beautifully machined.