Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: thehackmechanic on Sunday,August 11, 2019, 05:45:30 PM
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Hey, folks, I've put nearly 200 miles on my '74 TCS since its resurrection. The past couple of days I've noticed that, when I make tight turns, I hear the right front tire scraping. By "tight," I mean turning into my driveway or pulling in and out of parking spots. It didn't do this previously. Even with the wheels pointing straight, the back of the tire is very close to the corner of the rocker panel. I jacked up the car and inspected the front end. I expected to see something like both A-arms mashed backwards, but everything looks straight, and nothing feels loose. Any idea what's causing it, and why it started happening within the last two days?
In a probably unrelated problem, I also a lot of wheel vibration over 50 mph. The tires are new, inexpensive Achilles 185/70/13s. I've spun the wheels on the car. The Cosmic wheels are surprisingly straight, but the tires have a little bit of out-of-round. I had an el cheapo mount and balance done when I bought the tires; shame on me. I'm taking the car in for a road force balancing next week.
I have new upper ball joints and tie rods but other than deteriorated rubber books, there's nothing obviously wrong with them (no play). I also have a trunion kit, but I was planning on doing all that when I replace the front shocks. I'd do it now and hold off on the road force wheel balance and instead have a balance and alignment done at the same time if I thought it would solve the problem of the tire hitting, but I don't see how it's related.
I'm taking the car on its first real trip in 40 years, the 70 miles from my house to LOG39 in Sturbridge, in two weeks. I'm a little hesitant to go down the rabbit hole and rip the entire front end of the car apart without cause, but I'm also a little alarmed that this rubbing issue came on so quickly and appears to be getting worse.
Any ideas?
Thanks.
--Rob Siegel
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Your front tires should not be that close to the rear of the fender well opening. Did you do a body off restoration? The only way the body could be that close is for the body to be installed incorrectly (although I don’t even know how you could do that as most of the bolt points wouldn’t align) or you have a cracked front box and the entire front suspension moved back.
I just put my Europa up on the lift to look how that could even happen. I’m completely bewildered. Is the lower trunnion intact?
Hopefully someone has a simple answer. I sure don’t.
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Just on one side? How close id the left side?
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No body-off restoration. It's a car that was off the road for 40 years that I did a rolling revival on; just started driving it around this summer. I've been writing about it for Hagerty. This is one of about ten pieces:
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2019/05/20/long-dead-project-comes-to-life-patience-pays-off
I'll set it down off the jackstands tomorrow morning and check left and right clearances.
Thanks.
--Rob Siegel
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Rob, Check the lower pivot pin in the front frame box...
It can tear and force the suspension to move.
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I had this happen. The a-arm bushing had slipped out of it’s outer sleeve. I replaced them with bushings from RD Enterprizes. They are bonded with a rolled edge and have been just fine for 10K.
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I don't see any cracking or bending of the box on either the upper, lower, left, or right corners.
@JBCollier: Do you see what you're describing in any of the photos?
(Just found your post describing where this happened to you.)
--Rob
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In picture 060 the top a-arm bolt looks bent back. Is that an optical illusion or is it bent?
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I think it's an illusion. That's the left one. First three pics are the right one, next three pics are the left one. It's the right wheel that's rubbing. I'll put the car back on the ground tomorrow and compare how close both wheels are to the back corners of their wheel arches.
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The first thing we need to appreciate is the level of Lotus QC. Having said that, your case seems to be extreme even for Lotus. When my car was "new" I had a similar problem but as I remember it was because I had mistakenly put a rear wheel on the front (i.e. a 185/70-13 for a front tire). It was only a light brush of the tire against the inside of the fender for me and some seem to get away with it with impunity and some apparently don't.
Another thing to appreciate is that not looking bent doesn't necessarily mean it's not bent. A more careful inspection and/or a good alignment may point to some bentness.
I recently learned that a flat spot on my 3-piece wheels made itself known at 50 mph and above. One thing about the Lotus Brand alloy wheels (stock Lotus alloy wheels) is that the holes in the wheels for the lug nuts can get wallowed out over time. If the Cosmics have the same attachment (shoulder bolt that goes into the wheel with a washer - i.e. not with a conical nut) that may be a place to look. Otherwise, your tires would be where I'd look and it seems you're already there.
If the rubbing is getting worse, that is a bit worrying. Did you work on the front suspension? If so, did you tighten it down with the wheels at ride height? Thi is important because the rubber bushes can only be stressed so far. If the suspension was tightened at full droop, when you hit a bump or your tire into bump it could tear the rubber requiring new ones. This is not what JB is talking about. He is talking about the center of the bush being pushed out but I'm talking about the rubber in the bush being torn from rotation.
Good luck on your trip to LOG 39! I wish I could meet you there! It should be a lot of fun!
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BDA:
And now comes the part where I, mister I'm-a-full-time-automotive-writer, says "I am a big doofus.
You said "i.e. a 185/70-13 for a front tire. Ding ding ding ding. I was chasing the wheel vibration issues and swapped front and rears without remembering that the rears are 185s and the fronts are 175. Or were before I swapped them.
Uh, never mind.
(Too bad you're not coming to LOG39. I'd buy you a beer!)
--Rob
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Don't feel too bad. I've already made that mistake and many others besides! What really worried me is that you thought it was getting worse and that led me to worry about your bushes. Hopefully swapping your wheels will put things back to normal.
I really wish I could make it to the LOG. I'd even take you up on that beer! :beerchug: Hopefully there will be a LOG closer to both of us. It would be great to meet you!
I hope you'll post about your experience the LOG.
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This whole experience just answered my question of what size spare to carry. Cleary the front tire as the rears won’t fit.
Rob, I’m very happy for you that it was only a tire size issue. I’ll buy you a beer at LOG!
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Right! The spare was a front wheel.
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Glad it's sorted. Stupid is my second middle name -- after Danger, of course.
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Fyi, my spare was a 165/70-13. As I remember, itt was still a pain to take that in or out. I don’t use it any more.
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A 185/60 would, or should work on the front.
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This reminds me of the day I test drove and bought my current Europa. The brakes were quite weak and the front tires seemed to rub on the inner fender wells. I mentioned this to the owner as we slowly drove down the street and he said he would change the wheel cylinders as they were leaking but he couldn't do anything about the tires rubbing as 'they all did that". When we got back to his garage I did a quick check and, sure enough, the 185's were on the front and the 175's were on the back. I pointed this out to him and he said they came that way from the factory. After some discussion he finally admitted he really didn't know much about these funny little British cars as he was more comfortable with Maserati's. When he delivered the car to me the 185's were still on the front.
Larry
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FYI, see attached pace from the TCS owner's manual.
t
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BDA:
And now comes the part where I, mister I'm-a-full-time-automotive-writer, says "I am a big doofus.
You said "i.e. a 185/70-13 for a front tire. Ding ding ding ding. I was chasing the wheel vibration issues and swapped front and rears without remembering that the rears are 185s and the fronts are 175. Or were before I swapped them.
Uh, never mind.
(Too bad you're not coming to LOG39. I'd buy you a beer!)
--Rob
at least it's sorted now! 8)
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And now comes the part where I, mister I'm-a-full-time-automotive-writer, says "I am a big doofus.
--Rob
:) Great that you've got a sense of humor and you didn't just go silent on this.
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Glad you got it sorted with only a swap of the wheels. :)
I just checked the clearances on my own TCS, and the front wheels (175/70) are centered in the wheel arches with about an inch to the edges. I mention this because I had some issues with bent suspension arms on one side probably after hitting one or more potholes in the road. The suspension arms are the weakest and sacrificial part of the front suspension. The high speed stability saw a clear improvement when the suspension arms were fixed and (I guess) the caster angle returned to within specifications. Anyway, just to add that if your front wheel is still too close to the edges and is not centered in the wheel arch the reason could be bent suspension arms.