Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Sherman Kaplan on Sunday,July 28, 2019, 08:01:07 PM
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My chassis is back from the shop that was repairing the front T section. They built an entire new T section and the chassis was epoxy primed and painted with Bill Hirsch chassis black. The inside of the frame was then sprayed with a cavity wax. I'm now starting the slow reassembly process. I've already started fabricating new brake lines and have fitted all the pieces that go inside the frame. Attached are a few pictures. The first show the reason the T had to be fixed.
I have a question about the front suspension assembly. When fitting the upper and lower fulcrum pins and other bolts I was planning on using anti seize on everything. What about the torque settings when using anti seize? Some suggestions I have read say to use the factory settings other suggestions say to reduce the factory settings by 20% to 30%.
Thanks,
Sherman
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Congratulations on your repaired frame!
I know some people who put anti seize on every bolt. I don't think it's a bad idea, I just don't do it. I would think it might be more important if your car sat outside because I suspect you really want to make sure your nuts don't rusted on. In any event, 20 or 30% sounds reasonable but I don't really know.
The lower fulcrum pins will have to be locked into the frame. I would advise you to grind a flat on the lower fulcrum pins and drill and tap a hole on the frame to accept a set screw. The set screw will keep your lower pins from turning when you tighten them up but allow you move them later if you have to. I "glued" mine in with red Loktite before I put the body on and later I wished I could have moved it when I wanted to take the lower wishbones off.
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The recommended torque setting for chassis bolts are nowhere close to the fastener's yield point so no need to reduce the torque when using anti-seize. Either you, many years from now, or the next owner, will thank you for using anti-seize.
If you are using the stock suspension bushings, they need to be tightened at running height. Leave them slightly loose until the car is built up. Then use ramps to get the car in the air and tighten them down then.
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Looks great. I see your running your brake lines inside the chassis?
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Thanks.
I'm using Poly bushings from Banks. I believe I can torque these up now and not wait until the car is on the ground?
I'm running the brakes lines as stock, through the T section then under the chassis. The master cylinder in the picture is a spare, I sent the master cylinder, brake boosters and PWDA switch to White Post for restoration.
I had not read about locking the lower fulcrum pin. The ones I took out were original and were just had a double nut on one side and a single nut on the other (Nylocs)
I ordered front wheel bearing kits from the usual suppliers. They sent a nice green Lucas box. The bearings inside are KOR FHBC, which I gather are made in Korea. Has anyone had any problems with these? I checked online and it seems that there are some complaints about these on the UK mini forum. Any recommendation on what wheel bearing grease to use?
Thanks,
Sherman
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The reason you have to torque your suspension at ride height with rubber bushings is that the rubber can only take so much rotation before it tears. If you torque everything at full droop, when you hit a bump, you'll tear the bushings. From what I understand, poly bushings are set up so they rotate freely (sorry, I can't find where I thought I read that).
If yours came out with one side double nutted, that would accomplish the same thing. When I took my lower pivots out, they were stuck (maybe rusted?) in the frame so I figured it was supposed to be that way. In fact, I think I remember that when it was new, there was a full height nyloc nut on both sides of both pivots. What happened to me is that when I glued my lower pivots, the rear of the pin was a little too long and when I went to take off the trailing wishbone half, there wasn't enough room between the end of the pivot and the body work so I had to cut the end of the pivot to get the wishbone half off. If you are able to move the pivot, that won't be a problem. I wouldn't have thought there was enough length to do that. Since it's already done, you're in good shape!
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Sherman , you’re on fire 🔥 parts are flying onto that frame. Good job with those brake lines.
Keep at at!
Dakazman
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Sorry, confused you with another person who was going to run the brake lines inside the chassis. Great start to your restoration!
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Yes, you can just torque the fittings with poly bushings at any point. Just the bonded rubber bushings need to be done at normal ride height.
Myself, I use bearings from Europa (SKF, FAG) and Japan (NSK). I'm not saying other bearings are not good quality. I prefer to pay a little more and not have to worry about it.
Use a good-quality, name-brand, wheel bearing grease. Some people insist you need a high temperature rated wheel bearing grease. I have not found that the case for normal street use. Track use is another matter entirely.
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Timkin are fine as well.
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Brings to mind: When I was about 10 (1966) living near Detroit, with dad working for Ford, there was a Timkin jingle we would hear on the radio: "...with Timkin steel and Timkin roller bearings, roller bearings..." I can hear it now. How times change, and how those things stick! Everybody in the neighborhood worked for a car company.
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I received my rebuilt master cylinder, calipers and boosters so I'm on my way again. I'm trying to finish up the front suspension, but I'm having a problem with fitting the calipers. The problem is on both sides. Is there a way to center them? They need to move toward the outside. If I needed to move them toward the chassis I could fit shims. But to move them the other direction I can't figure out what needs to be done short of grinding some off the caliper mount (which I don't think is correct, unless someone tells me otherwise). I have checked everything I can think of: the hub seems correct on the stub axle (stub axle was not removed),
hub felt seal is the right size, no burs or obstruction pushing the hub out. I've taken everything apart so many times I can do it with my eyes closed. I can spin the rotor without the pads and it is not touching the caliper, but it is really close on the outside on both sides. When I put the pads in they are both very tight on the left side caliper. On the right side the pad on the inside is loose, but the pad on the outside is tight. When I spin the rotors with the pads I think there is too much drag. I have new TRW pads and I took off the TRW anti squeal strip to get them to fit with the original aluminum anti squeal strip, but everything is just a bit too tight. I have new EBC rotors. From my research it looks like the original spitfire rotors are/were 9.5 mm. The EBC rotors are about 10 mm. I know .5 mm is not much, but if I could center the caliper and if I had that extra .5 mm I think everything would be working correctly. I've spent a day and half working on this :deadhorse:
All help/comments greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Sherman
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Did you remove the caliper mount from the vertical link? It is the only thing that locates the caliper.
Are you sure the hub bearings are all the home and that the felt is crushed. Every time I have changed the felt, it was very tight and took a while to wear in. Perhaps it is holding the hub out and the inner bearing is not being loaded.
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I did remove the caliper mount (several times). I've tried to make sure that it is on correctly. The felt is new, but I compared it to the old felt and it is the same size. I even tried mounting everything without the felt and without the metal piece that holds the felt. I double checked the bearings and they looked seated correctly. From everything I can see the hub is as far back on the spindle as it can go.
Sherman
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Did you check the race seat inside the hub?
Do not grind!
Dakazman
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IIRC there's a flat rubber gasket/seal/islator (or whatever it is) that is less than 0.1" thick that goes between the caliper mount and the upright. Looking at the parts manual exploded diagram, it looks like if you didn't have that, the caliper mounting face would be too far inboard and so might cause your problem. The funny thing is that I don't think I see the rubber piece I'm talking about in the parts manual diagram so maybe I'm all wet, but I can see that rubber piece in my mind's eye. I'm sure there is such a rubber piece and I'm pretty sure that's where it goes but even if I took my upright apart I wouldn't be any more sure since I have different brakes.
Maybe someone else will know what I'm talking about and check my memory.
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I double checked that the races were fully seated in the hub. The more I thought about the problem, especially on the right side, I think that something may have been off since the car was new. I tried the old pads, which had about 24,000 miles (original from the factory). They did fit better. I did notice on the right side, the inside pad was thicker than the outside pad.
I also posted my question on the Yahoo message board as some people frequent that site and not this one and vice versa. JB Collier responded and suggested that I sand the pads. That will definitely help on the left side. It will also work on the right side, but I will only need to sand the outside pad and they will end up different thicknesses. That is why I would like to figure out how to center the caliper on the rotor.
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BDA, yes there is a thin rubber gasket. I reused the one that was there. As I mentioned, I have had the caliper mounting bracket on and off numerous times. I have tried to make sure that the gasket is seated properly.
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I'm glad I wasn't imagining it. It sounds like thinning the mount lugs might be your only choice.
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That is about the only thing I can think of. Is this a safe idea? I don't think it would be a lot of material. Dakazman said not to grind. I'm wondering if the original caliper bracket castings were not that accurate? On Serge's video about the front brake calipers he mentions that his were not centered. He was lucky and could shim his.
Someone on the Yahoo board said that the calipers don't have to be centered. I'm a little OCD so I would like to try :)
Sherman
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Could you shim the caliper bracket?
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The disc should be centered. In spite of the fact that it doesn't seem right to modify the standard setup, taking a little material off the mount is not a big deal. If you know someone with a mill, that would be best but if you're careful with a file, you should be alright.
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JB, unfortunately it will only shim towards the chassis, not the other way. The only way to move the caliper towards the outside would be to file the caliper mounting. BDA, that is what I'm going to do, take a file to the mount and go slow.
Sherman
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A machine shop could mill it quite easily and it would be perfectly plane and square. Worth the small expenditure.
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Just do one thing first, assemble the hubs without the felt seals and see if it makes any difference.
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I have a dim memory of something similar and it ended up being something I assembled incorrectly. I also installed new rotors and pads and the new pads didn’t fit. I’m going to have to dig deep into the memory banks to remember what it was. I’ll look at the thousands of photos I took and see if I can spot anything. But I know I did not file or cut anything.
Your restoration is coming along nicely!
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My memory is often questionable!
Wasn't there mention in the past of replacement wheel bearings which were wider (thicker) than original bearings causing problems?
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Hey Sherman, I took a picture of my setup However stock. My rotors are not centered , both are closer towards the inboard side and The rotors turn freely. The pressures of the hydraulic fluid is the same to both pucks unless it’s engineered in or the area is different.
Dakazman
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Thanks everyone. I spent the morning with a file and sandpaper. I filed the mounting boss for the caliper very slightly and sanded 3 of the 4 pads. The rotors are still not centered. Dakazman, my rotors are closer to the outboard side, but I'll put that down to tolerances of everything. I filed so little on the mounting boss, that I'm not sure if I did anything. However, the good news is with the filing and sanding the rotors turn freely with only a very slight sound of the rotor rubbing the pad on both sides. My understanding is that this is normal. Without the pad the rotors turn with no noise. As I'm just an enthusiastic amateur my plan is to have all of my work checked by a professional before the car is put on the road so if anything is wrong it will be fixed before I run into a wall. :huh:
I have reassembled the rear brakes and that went smoothly. As I have the self adjusting brakes, which I have read don't work real well I took advantage of having everything apart and drilled an access hole in the backing plate if I ever have to adjust the brakes manually.
For setting the end float on the front hubs I know the manual says to use a dial gauge. The mount for my dial gauge is not long enough to work. I read on the Knowledge Base that the end float can also be set by tightening the hub nut to 5 lbs and then back off to the next flat to align the cotter pin. I did that and it seems fine. Anyone set the end float that way?
My next project is to finish the brake lines.
Thanks again,
Sherman
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Did you split your calipers to rebuild them?
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I sent my calipers, master cylinder, boosters and pwda switch to White Post to have them restore.
Interesting item: On the boosters that I have seen rebuilt the original band is cut and a new clamp on band is used. White Post must have someway of removing and reusing the original band. I'm sure the boosters were taken apart as I can see a new gasket between the hydraulic body and the diaphragm shell and there is a new rubber hose coming out of the diaphragm shell (which needs to be replaced with the shell open). I read somewhere about a technique to remove the original band in one piece, but I would think it's easier to just replace?
Sherman
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I wonder if it’s possible to switch the outside half of the caliper with another and the dimensions changed?
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I replaced the wheel bearing on my Elan for our road trip to Log and had the same problem on the left side ?
Turned out one of the bearing races was not fully seated ? Take another look it them.
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I also cut the new felt down to as it was way to thick and used the old real metal peace not the stamped sheet metal ?
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Thanks, I did double check the bearings and the races. The races are fully seated. I also made sure the felt was not too thick. I even tried the hub without the felt and metal piece and it was the same.
Sherman
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I finished making and installing new brake lines. As I'm a firm believer in Murphy's Law so I decided to test the brake lines/connections for leaks. I made some connecting lines to substitute for the brake boosters which will be installed when the body is back on the chassis. I didn't want to use the master cylinder at this time so instead I used a pump meant to bleed the brakes on the lines that go to the MC.
For $10 I bought a small tool to lock the piston in the PWDA switch. I know I could remove the electrical switch and move the piston to center, but this little tool makes life a little easier. I stuffed paper towels at each connection to help spot any leaks. I pumped fluid until I was sure that it was coming out of the bleeders. No leaks, except for the cheap pump that leaked like a sieve.
Sherman
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Onward and upward! :beerchug:
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The brake system can see pressures over 1000 psi (70 bar).
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Thanks, I'll keep checking the connections for leaks when the MC and body are back on the car. My next step is waiting for Ray at RD to get the rear axle flingers in stock. His machinist is making a batch and they should hopefully be ready in a week or two. Once I have the flingers I will be able to install the rear axles. I've copied the tool that Certified Lotus used to install his axles.
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It looks like you have AVO front coil overs. What size springs are you using? Are they 10 inch and 150 lbs?
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For $10 I bought a small tool to lock the piston in the PWDA switch. I know I could remove the electrical switch and move the piston to center, but this little tool makes life a little easier.
Sherman
Hi Sherman;
Sounds like things are coming along nicely! Can you provide some details on your "$10 PWDA switch tool"? My switch got activated in the last brake bleed and it's on my list of things to reset, but the brakes are working nicely now and I am loath to break into the system again just to reset the switch.
Tom
Edit: I see the pic of the screw with the pin now. That would be easy to make. Is it easy to reset the piston by removing the switch and manipulating the piston through the switch opening, without having to re-bleed the brakes? Have not gotten around to trying that yet.
t
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Yup. Remove the plastic switch and simply move the spool back into the central position with a small screwdriver.
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This tool is to keep the piston from moving when you bleed brakes. If your piston has moved and your brake light is on you will have to either remove the electrical switch and fish around to center the piston or the manual says to release the opposite bleeder to have pressure try and center the piston. If you search the internet for PWDA switch there are lots of articles about rebuilding and/or centering the piston. This type of switch was used on MG's and Triumphs from the era. I think the switch on the Twin Cam came from the Triumph GT6. MG and the other triumph models seemed to use brass. I thought for $10 this little tool would save some time. Plus it was another excuse to buy a new tool. I purchased it from a company called Muscle Car Research. https://www.musclecarresearch.com/brake-valve-tool If you have a lathe you could make one as you pointed out it is pretty simple. If you are purchasing you need the ford part which has 3/8 threads. I believe there is a GM part, but it has 1/2 threads.
Sherman
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Certified, I am using AVO's that I ordered from Banks. They are his stock setup. I unfortunately don't know the rates.
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It's been awhile since my last post and I thought it was time for an update for those that are interested. I finished the chassis and have reunited it with the body. I'm keeping the paint as is (it is original). I now have a million little things to do before I can drive it.
Sherman
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She looks great, Sherman! I see you're going for originality keeping your charcoal canister and crossover pipes!
Congratulations on your milestone! :beerchug:
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Thanks, I'm keeping it about 90% original. The crossover pipes are just for show. I made some steel plates that they are sitting on. Also, if you notice, I switched from the original stromberg's to SU's (and removed the secondary butterfly's)
Sherman
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Looks great Sherman. Getting to the final stages. Look like you’ll have it done for summer driving :beerchug:
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Looks fantastic Sherman! :beerchug: I agree the faux crossover pipes are an interesting choice. What was your motivation to switch to the SU carbs? (I believe pfreen and others have done that.) Your original paint looks great in the photos, as does mine from 10 ft or more.
Tom
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I had a Europa in the 70's and I still have a Triumph TR6. I had troubles with the strombergs (the tr6 did not run well until I switched to SU's, even after putting on a different rebuilt pair of strombergs). Not wanting to go through the stromberg issues I went with SU's.
Regarding the faux crossover pipes I never liked the look of just having the plates on the manifolds. With the engine on a stand I got pretty good/fast at removing and replacing the crossover pipes. I'll have to see how easy it is with the body on. If they are too much trouble I can always remove them. :)
My paint also looks good at 10 feet.
Sherman
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Re: Strombergs vs SUs
I believe it was my first Europa, stock with its Strombergs, that would start as soon as I touched the ignition. There was no perceptible cranking. I've never had any other car do that. I don't know that SUs are better or worse than Strombergs - they certainly are simpler (when I was racing my MG Midget, my joke was that SUs were invented shortly after the wheel!) and for that reason are worth considering, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with Strombergs.
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I'm just posting an article on properly overhauling Strombergs.
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I don't necessarily think SU's are better. I agree that they are simple and as I had a pair lying around I thought I would use them. I have the original Strombergs and can always refit them.
Sherman
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HI Sherman,
Your car is looking very nice and I wish you well .
You and I have the same rear, drum brakes, the ones with the "auto adjusting function" and I agree that it doesn't seem to work. Looking at your post from September 8, 2019 and the pictures, I see that you drilled an access hole to manually adjust the brakes. Great idea and I will copy that on my car.
When I got my car, the brakes were in pieces and I did not have the benefit of taking them apart. Since I haven't done a brake job in about 40 years, it took me quite a while to get them back together, trial and error. When I was done, everything appears to work appropriately. However, I was left with a part that I was not able to install and can't seem to decide where it goes. I was hoping you could help me out since we both have the same brakes..
I posted a picture of the left over piece. I f you, or anyone else, can help me with the placement of this piece, I would appreciate it.
Thanks.
Bob
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The small H piece goes between the handbrake arm and the shoe. From my understanding the adjuster will not work properly without it. Rimmer Bros in the UK sells new ones if needed. I only had one so I bought a pair from them. I'll try and find a picture and post it.
Sherman
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Thanks Sherman, that solved ny problem!
Bob
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Glad to be able to help. Here is a thread on the triumph forum regarding the H piece and below is a picture.
https://www.triumphexp.com/phorum/read.php?8,1339269
Sherman