Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: jgaiti on Wednesday,July 17, 2019, 09:52:07 AM
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Hello names Joe. Short story my dad had a 68 years ago and now I find myself wanting one. Currently I'm looking at 2 Europa's both 73's. one of which needs a frame off resto. it has what appears to be dealer installed ac Also needs a new dash being the owner rigged up a sorry looking aluminum dash for it, and the floor pan behind the drivers seat needs fiber glass work. I can probably score it for 2k. The other is just the run of the mill Europa needs interior work and some mechanical repairs on suspension and a windscreen.Guys asking 12.5 for it. I know this is a hard question to ask, but with the limited info which would be the best choice. Thanks for any advice.
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:Welcome:
Joe,
A link to the seller with some pictures would help. You can also post pictures here but keep the size below 1mb. There is a how to on the welcome page.
Good luck on your selection and welcome
Dakazman
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Body work is very time consuming and expensive to do right. If the 12.5 car has a good body, that’s the one I would choose.
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Expect a proper professional paint job to cost around $10,000. That includes stripping all paint.
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They both need paint and interior work. Neither have run in many years (white one 20 yrs brown 10yrs). I can do body work as well as mechanical work. Im some what leaning to the white one due to it having ac. Not sure how rare that is.
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:Welcome: jgaiti
Taking just your description, the one to choose depends on how much work you're willing to do and how anal you are about it. For example, if you want to make sure, for example, your frame is good, your transfer tubes are in good shape, your motor is the best it can be, etc. and will be for a long time, it might make sense to do the ground up resto since you would have more control and you'll know what you have when you're done. Taking the "run of the mill" car will almost certainly be quicker to get on the road. I would not be shy about doing fiberglass work. I did a lot on my car and I didn't find it that difficult. Paying someone else to do it is probably another matter though. That goes for everything. A Europa is a pretty simple car and if you're interested and have some mechanical aptitude, you can save a lot of money (and eat up a lot of time) if you do your own work. Getting someone else to do a frame off resto would be outrageously expensive. Thinking about it, I think the fact that you asked the question might mean that you might be more comfortable with the "run of the mill" car that you can drive soon with a minimum of wrenching on your part.
Having said that, I think the D'man is right. The links to the cars would be helpful. Let us know what you do and POST PICTURES!! :)
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BDA I did post pictures. Ive been building Motorcycles for awhile now. Plus Ive been a gas and diesel tech for over 30 years. Working on everything from a VW to a Peterbilt. So im comfortable with wrenching. Just trying to get opinions and maybe some more insight as I was very young when my dad had his so I didn't get to wrench on it.
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Expect everything rubber to need replacing.
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Yeah, I saw those pictures but there isn't much detail in them but your description is probably enough to make a quick judgement. Since you're not intimidated by doing the wrenching, the cost may be an issue you want to explore. Given that you want a Europa at a level higher than the $12,500 car, I think it would be less expensive to get there starting with that car than the basket case. There are a lot of variables, of course - the relative condition of the frames, motors, and trannies are the biggest.
I just saw 4129R's post which reminds me that the history of the $12.5K car matters because if it's been sitting (especially outdoors) extended periods of time, not only the rubber but likely all brakes will have to be gone through and replacing a lot of that will add a lot of piece of mind.
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Even the more expensive one could end up as a basket case. I would go with the cheaper one as pretty much all the parts are available accept the ashtray but the white one still has it so you are good. :))
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The 12.5 car has been sitting outdoors for atleast 10years. All the rubber is shot along with the interior. Plus the windshield being cracked, aren't they hard to get? Now the white one has been in a garage for it entire resting period. The rubber on that one is still pliable and the undercarriage looks decent. The mice ate the seats LOL. Hopefully not the harness. Well I offered the guy with the white one 1500. Figure if its too far gone its worth atleast that much in parts?
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Wiring is not that complicated and again even the harness is available new and not really expensive. When you do a ground up resto I would change the wiring just to be safe. 1500 seems good for the car.
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Hi jgaiti, and :Welcome:
Given the specs for what kind of Europa you are looking for, have you considered this one (See classified ad below, from Lotus Owners car club president no less.)
I have never seen this car and have no relationship with the seller, just saw the ad this morning and then saw your post.
Tom (aka Surfguitar58)
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I didn't read all the posts but it's not the can do, have money but want to do and have too much time. Frame off is a lot of time and work. Do you have a lot of free time for the next few years?
If you need/want a/c, a Vintage Air Gen II mini will fit under the dash and work better than whatever was put in there in the 70's. I can give details if you want when you get there.
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I don’t mind taking a year or two to build something. I’ve done that before. Building is half the fun for me. So the guy got back to me and 2800 is his number.
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IMHO depending on condition, $2800 for a TC is a decent deal. I think the days of the cheap Europa are slowly coming to an end, most of the S2 projects I've seen lately start around $2k, sure you might find a complete basket case for less, but prices are starting to creep up.
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G’day jgaiti,
My philosophy is that you’ll likely spend the same amount of time and money replacing/repairing/refurbishing a poor example as a very poor one.
10K will buy a lot of stuff.
With that said, a TC engine can be expensive to rebuild and that alone could easily tip the balance.
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Another factor to remember is the gearbox and the bell-housing. It can be bolted up to a z-tec engine. There are many ways to rebuild an Europa. Your indefatigable persistence is what will make your dreams come true.
Dakazman
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Good point D'man. Converting to Zetec is easier if you already have a TC bell housing. There are other issues that need to be addressed but I think the Zetec swap makes a lot of sense if originality is not important to you. You can get Zetec crate engines for a reasonable price - probably less than a TC rebuild. You have to choose between FI and Webers but that could be the fun part!
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Does either have a 5 speed?
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That is an important point. A healthy 5-speed would be a really nice to have - especially for highway driving.
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I don’t mind taking a year or two to build something. I’ve done that before. Building is half the fun for me. So the guy got back to me and 2800 is his number.
Hi, and another :Welcome:
I think you've just bought yourself a year or two's entertainment ;)
To be honest, I would go for the rebuild car unless the more expensive one drove extremely well, was in current usage and had a comforting folder full of bills for recent replacements.
My logic is that I would want to renew or overhaul the brakes/steering immediately for peace of mind, so add that to the purchase price. Suspension is everything on these cars so that would be next on the list before looking too hard at the engine/gearbox. On the Europa that means not only springs/dampers but I'd be looking at the rear driveshafts which usually means doing the bearings while it's in bits. Parts wear on these cars much faster than modern ones and a below par Lotus might feel ok but you'll be missing out on the pleasure you could be getting from a properly set up car.
If you want something do drive this week and don't mind the rolling restoration approach then the $12k car has more appeal, but I wouldn't be surprised to find the eventual spares bill is the same for both cars over the next few years.
It sounds like you've got plenty of ability to sort out mechanics and if you're happy doing bodywork then there's only a couple of things I'd be concerned about between the cars.
Firstly, if these are 73's they most likely have the 5sp box. Parts for these are scarce in the UK at least so a bad box means either a long search or something like an NG3 replacement, which adds plenty to the bill. The TC engines are reliable enough but expensive to overhaul although you can get all the parts or as others have said, a zetec conversion will be cheaper. Neither of these are deal breakers but could be big money items in parts bill terms and might slow you down a bit.
Let's know which one you go for and ask away once you get started.... remember it's better to ask a dumb question than make a dumb mistake !
Brian
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Hello Joe,
:Welcome:
Good luck with your project!
Mark
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All sage advise from forum members. I’m on my fourth Lotus restoration in 5 years and will tell you to buy a car that has something on it that ISN’T in a state of disrepair.
What does that mean? Don’t buy a car that needs absolutely everything replaced, repaired, refinished or restored. If you do, absolutely everything you touch will have $$$ attached to it. And it gets expensive quickly. Guaranteed you will end up with a beautiful Lotus that has more money invested in it than it’s possibly worth. And all your labor will be free.
So, look for a car that either runs and can be driven while you do a rolling road restoration (preferred) or find a car that has a great body but needs mechanical work or a car that has a fantastic original interior and runs but needs body work. You get the idea. A complete basket case takes a lot of effort, time and money. And if you have never worked on a Lotus before the learning curve is steep.
One last comment, even a well restored Europa still requires work and constant fiddling. You could easily buy a nice car for $25K and have lots to do. Just sayin.......
:Welcome:
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Thank you all for your input. I'm still waiting on a reply from the other car (12.5). And I will post detailed pictures of the one I acquire. Im looking forward to a project as I have been away from cars for a long time.
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So the 12.5 guy got back to me. His lowest price is 8K. https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2235235386552564/ The needed repairs off the top ,4 wheel brakes, interior, all weather stripes shot, windshield broken, 1/4 glass missing, sway bar anchors broken, hasn't run in atleast 10 years and pedal mounts broken(rotted) off floor. That's the link to the add. What do ya'll think?
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The ad says "runs and is in good condition". What you describe is not that at all. You should have it carefully inspected first.
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Ofcourse I'd go back and check if the engine even turns. And as stated before itll probably need suspension work due to sitting. He was smart enough to drain all the fuel out. I know theres quite a bit wrong with it just to make it a runner. That's why Im here. I don't know the market on these as in resale. When they do come up it seams they sit awhile, as in a small demographic are even interested. Dad always told me to consider you're resale when buying a project.To me 8k seams high without hearing the engine run. Some people think they have gold
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$8000 is a lot more reasonable. I think it is worth an hour and a half drive to take a look at it. It's a bit worrying that roll bar links are broken because I wonder if there is other damage you can't see. JB is right. There is no way that car runs.
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BDA I have looked at it and its rough! Paint is shot along with the other damage I have noted. sway bar broke due to hitting a "speed bump" supposedly. And it was quite obvious that it hadn't run in years.
This is the other one. https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1964173393710278/
My thought as mentioned before is I could probably make the brown one a driver quicker. Where as the other is well more obvious what needs to be done...….LOL
BTW I was hesitant on posting links. Ive had people buy vehicles out from under me before.
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If I were looking for a project car, I wouldn't consider the paint because it's likely that any car I looked at would need paint, but I would check out the body for damage. The frame is the most important thing to look at because if that needs repair or replacement, the project is exponentially bigger.
I suppose it's possible that the roll bar links were bent from hitting a speed bump but it must have been a steep one and he must have been going pretty fast. That would make me look for other damage in the area. In fact, I might assume some things about the way he drives and be more diligent looking for other bent pieces.
Something else to consider is if the PO (and how many POs are there?) did any modifications. Some people have a vaunted opinion of their skills and end up making things worse. I would be careful about anything that isn't easily reversible (said the guy is not shy about changing just about everything on his car!). From what I can tell, that isn't a problem on this car.
I don't consider that I have any aptitude in pricing "discarded" Europas and I would only consider the cost of repairs if I were going to sell it or I have a budget. If I were interested in selling it, I'd keep it as stock as possible and concentrate on making it the best Europa (like this one: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1973-lotus-europa-special-3/). Expect to spend more than you expected. For that reason I think it makes more sense to spend it on yourself.
After ten years outside, I would expect an engine rebuild would be in the cards. I think you would be really lucky to get away with just rebuilding the carbs. I can easily be wrong and I hope I am. The same goes for the tranny.
And then only you know if you are susceptible to mission creep. For some, it takes a lot of discipline to do what needs to be done and not take use every instance where you take a part off the car that needs to be taken off to take another part off that doesn't to make it a little prettier or "better".
I hope that helps a little.
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I sheared the roll bar pick up stud on the bottom of the coil-over putting a Europa in the garage when the gravel drive was lower than the concrete garage floor.
I have also sheared the weld where the drop link attached to the roll bar, just towing a car with 4 flat tyres on wet grass.
Those are the most fragile parts of the front suspension.
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Firstly :Welcome:
Looking at the pics etc on the links and reading your description of what you saw on the brown car I would be treating both at pretty much the same level. Would consider both to need comprehensively going through - front anti roll bar being broken would make me want to check the chassis and suspension thoroughly for example.
There really isn't that much to Europas and there are enough places around to get parts and advice from - would you be looking to have a completely original spec car for example or would you prefer to modernise/modify to suit yourself? Depending on your answer, which of the two is more suited to what you think of when you are finished rebuilding/refurbing? (Is one more complete with original fixtures and fittings which would suit your desire to build a concours car?! Does one have enough to get you started down the path of a modified road/track orientated car...?)
Have seen far worse condition Europas used as a starting point tbh, a good car could be made from either providing you have the time and interest (bit of money helps too!).
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Jr73 totally understand your point of view. And going by that I’ve already started researching parts . Although I’m not overly concerned about the fiber glass work on the white one, I’d rather not if possible. They both have good points on them but the initial investment concerns me. 8k and finding the engine or trans is shot vs 2800 starting point and expecting to rebuild either.
And Im thankful for everyones input. It has opened my eyes to different things that I didn’t think of. I’m going to be looking at both of them again over the weekend to make a final decision.
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It's interesting to see what some folks class as "good condition"...... :)
There's more to see on the brown car and if the original owner was the seller's father, then it might be a "one driver" car. It's clearly had some money spent in the past, the exhaust manifold looks aftermarket and is that an electronic ignition system on the engine bay wall ? It looks reasonably complete, original steering wheel, etc, which means you might get away with restoring rather than replacing lots of parts - instruments/dash/etc.
Broken suspension wouldn't bother me, the pins on the bottom of the dampers are only 3" or so above the road and driving over a decent sized pothole could easily bend/break that. I would be concerned about missing glass; windscreens are reasonably easy to get, door/rear window glass less so. I think perspex alternatives are around but it's something to consider as the door glass is unique and not easily replicated. Check out replacements before you go for that one.
Both cars will need fibreglass work once the paint is off, at the very least both engines will need stripping down & checking based on the external condition & notes. I expect both cars will need complete carpet/vinyl trim replacement but if the originals are present in either car that means it's possible to DIY with patterns to work with.
I find it hard to offer sensible advice after seeing both adverts and daft though it sounds, I'd base part of my decision on the seller. If the guy is just flipping a car he found in a barn then it's a real leap of faith; if he's selling his dad's old (one owner) car then I'd be more inclined to haggle with the latter. Take a clipboard, jot down major replacements and current market values and I'd expect to make a case to get below $8k.
I can't see a positive return on either car but at least you'll know what you're in for. Would I take one if I wanted a Europa ? Yes, certainly and I'd probably try to shave the brown car's price down.
Brian
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I believe the hardest part on the whole of any Europa to replace is the gearbox. Made from 100% unobtainium.
If the cheap one has a five speed gearbox, bite his hand off and go for it.
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I agree about the the five speed but NG3s are still available but of course they do require some modifications.
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I believe the hardest part on the whole of any Europa to replace is the gearbox. Made from 100% unobtainium.
Can I assume you mean obtaining a gearbox? Not the physical act of replacement?
t
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I believe the hardest part on the whole of any Europa to replace is the gearbox. Made from 100% unobtainium.
Can I assume you mean obtaining a gearbox? Not the physical act of replacement?
t
To find a replacement 5 speed gear box to buy is near impossible.
To re-fix the gearbox is quite easy.
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To find a 365 is not easy. I usually only see one or two for sale in any given year. Pricing varies, say $800 to $2000. Most of the wearing parts are available with one exception, the Hewland supplied 5th gear. That gear makes unobtainium seem commonplace. More than a few 365s have been swapped for NG3s due to a bad 5th gear.
I have heard that it "may" be possible to fit a 5th from a 395. It's a bit involved as the Renault and Hewland gears have different selector forks as well. Here's my source:
http://gglotus.org/ggtech/europa-gearbox/europa-gearbox.htm
Why does 5th gear fail? Oil leaks and negligent owners. If the oil level falls, 5th gear is the first place that starts to run dry. It then heats up and wears. At the very least check your transaxle level at the beginning of the year. I also check mine before and after a long trip. If you always park in the same spot, the ground underneath will tell you if oil starts leaking more than usual.
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To find a 365 is not easy. I usually only see one or two for sale in any given year. Pricing varies, say $800 to $2000. Most of the wearing parts are available with one exception, the Hewland supplied 5th gear. That gear makes unobtainium seem commonplace. More than a few 365s have been swapped for NG3s due to a bad 5th gear.
I have heard that it "may" be possible to fit a 5th from a 395. It's a bit involved as the Renault and Hewland gears have different selector forks as well. Here's my source:
http://gglotus.org/ggtech/europa-gearbox/europa-gearbox.htm
Why does 5th gear fail? Oil leaks and negligent owners. If the oil level falls, 5th gear is the first place that starts to run dry. It then heats up and wears. At the very least check your transaxle level at the beginning of the year. I also check mine before and after a long trip. If you always park in the same spot, the ground underneath will tell you if oil starts leaking more than usual.
I design a lot of custom geartrains for my robotics day job. If we knew the specs of the tooth form one might be able to reverse engineer the Hewland gear and machine a replacement using something like this (https://www.khkgears.us/catalog/?cid=helical-gears ) as a blank, and case harden it after machining. Also, this company (rushgears.com ) will make any gear you want, for astronomical prices.
Tom
PS - Sorry for the thread hijack jgaiti, back to regular programming.
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🤣🤣High jack away!!! Useful info is good no matter what. EuropaTc great outlook and does make sense. Only had a chance to revisit one this weekend. So I’m still up in the air.
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I believe Hewland is willing to make them again but only in a significant run.
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There are not too many gear shops down here in TX, but I do deal with a company who machines and grinds gears for industrial pump applications and PTO attachments. They grind all of their gears to reduce noise and increase life for this type of application. Surf, do you think this application would need a ground gear? Or could you get away with a hobbed and hardened gear? There is another company close to me called Martin Sprocket. They sell gears, sprockets, and blanks as well. Most of their stuff is hobbed, not ground.
I am quite interested in the gear machining process as it is something of a novelty down here. Lots of aluminum aerospace milling and oil and gas work in NTX.
I may have a few other connections who could machine these gears if there was interest. I have a customer who does aftermarket parts for offroad racing. He is getting ready to buy a gear hobbing machine for some of his product line.
To find a 365 is not easy. I usually only see one or two for sale in any given year. Pricing varies, say $800 to $2000. Most of the wearing parts are available with one exception, the Hewland supplied 5th gear. That gear makes unobtainium seem commonplace. More than a few 365s have been swapped for NG3s due to a bad 5th gear.
I have heard that it "may" be possible to fit a 5th from a 395. It's a bit involved as the Renault and Hewland gears have different selector forks as well. Here's my source:
http://gglotus.org/ggtech/europa-gearbox/europa-gearbox.htm
Why does 5th gear fail? Oil leaks and negligent owners. If the oil level falls, 5th gear is the first place that starts to run dry. It then heats up and wears. At the very least check your transaxle level at the beginning of the year. I also check mine before and after a long trip. If you always park in the same spot, the ground underneath will tell you if oil starts leaking more than usual.
I design a lot of custom geartrains for my robotics day job. If we knew the specs of the tooth form one might be able to reverse engineer the Hewland gear and machine a replacement using something like this (https://www.khkgears.us/catalog/?cid=helical-gears ) as a blank, and case harden it after machining. Also, this company (rushgears.com ) will make any gear you want, for astronomical prices.
Tom
PS - Sorry for the thread hijack jgaiti, back to regular programming.
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do you think this application would need a ground gear? Or could you get away with a hobbed and hardened gear?
To be honest I design and spec the darn things, but I am no expert in how they are manufactured. I assume car xmission gears are hobbed because it is cheap and hardened because they have a long and difficult wear requirement. Hard to tell without having one to look at.
I recently bought a 365 gearbox to swap for the 352 in my TCS, but I am hoping it will go in and work perfectly without me having to crack the case open. Fingers crossed. If not I guess I will have a Hewland 5th gear to reverse engineer and replace.
Tom
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FYI in case it's useful, the 5th gear is under the end cover. You don't have to crack the case open to get to it. Also it looks like there is a separate front shift link for the TC and TC Federal from the TCS and TCS Federal. Not sure why...
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I have a 365 for my TCS and it is totally locked up. No telling how bad mine is inside. I am interested in your project and look forward to the results.
do you think this application would need a ground gear? Or could you get away with a hobbed and hardened gear?
To be honest I design and spec the darn things, but I am no expert in how they are manufactured. I assume car xmission gears are hobbed because it is cheap and hardened because they have a long and difficult wear requirement. Hard to tell without having one to look at.
I recently bought a 365 gearbox to swap for the 352 in my TCS, but I am hoping it will go in and work perfectly without me having to crack the case open. Fingers crossed. If not I guess I will have a Hewland 5th gear to reverse engineer and replace.
Tom