Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Lola T250 on Wednesday,January 23, 2013, 05:15:38 PM
-
Lotus Europa Fans
First post from a newbie
I want to take this opportunity to say thank you to the person or persons responsible for putting up this website. It is so nice to not have to search through a plethora of non relevant information on a multitude of different cars (common to other forums) to find something related to the car I am interested in learning more about. And that car of course is the Lotus Europa. I would also like to thank those of you that post on the forum. When you are in your online discussions I am learning, and often times it is from the one who has turned the wrench.
I'd like to see if in some small way I can contribute to the growth of this forum. My attempt will be to see if I can convince at least one other enthusiast or owner to join into the discussions that has never posted on this site before. To increase the odds of success, I'd ask that if you have ever posted on this site, DO NOT respond to my first question until another affectionado who has never posted takes the first stab at answering it for me.
First question from the newbie: On a Lotus Type 47, I see what looks like NACA ducts just below what looks like a fuel cap. Are these ducts for brake coolers, oil coolers, ram air for the carbs, fresh air for the cockpit, none of these, all of these, a combination of things or are they just for looks?
Thanks again to all that have contributed to this site.
Ron
Lola Driver
Maryland, USA
-
Hello Ron, and welcome to the forum.
I'll respect your request and avoid answering, but just be friendly, say "hi" and immediately wander off topic..... "Lola" eh ? now is that a car or someone the Kinks once sang about ? :)
(hmmm, that does show my age.....)
Brian
-
Brian,
Thank you for the welcome. My Lola is a car but it is fun to drive it into the kinks. It is the first car that Mr. John Barnard designed (serial #1). If you see him tell him I haven't rolled it into a little ball yet and that I concur with his assessment, the learning curve is quite frightening.
Back to Lotus. While we diligently wait for someone new to attempt to answer my question about the NACA ducts, I was wondering if you or anyone else knows the answer to this one. It is my understanding that Mr. Jim Clark and Mr. Colin Chapman were both pilots. If this is true, I can only imagine that they probably chatted about flying between themselves and wonder if one might have influenced the other about learning to fly. So my question is, if they were both pilots, which one of them obtained their licence to fly an airplane first? Please excuse, and inform me if I have posted this question in the wrong section or should have started a new thread as I am a newbie. But as a Lotus Europa affectionado, it is something else that I have wondered about.
Ron
-
Welcome to the forum, Ron. I too will refrain from answering your questions, though truthfully I don't actually know the answers. I'd be interested to know. Cheers
-
Mr. Bainford,
Thank you for the welcome. I enjoy your posts and would agree with the others, keep your Europa the same color. Thanks for playing along and not answering the NACA duct question while I await a response to it from a new contributor.
Back to Lotus. I have never driven a Europa and would like some clarification on a gearbox question. Hypothetically speaking, a Twin Cam is playing the symphony whilst the driver ballets upon the petals. At 3800 RPM the driver gets lost in the music. In this distracted state and lacking any precision he points the baton at the percussion section. In response to his action, he immediately hears a terrible grinding noise emanating from the rear of the car. My question is this, how many times will a typical Europa driver in this situation continue to point the baton at the percussion section before he attempts to change his dance step and double clutch? And if the driver double clutches a Europa, will it have any bearing on resolving the disruption of the music?
Ron
-
Hello and :Welcome:
My percussion section stopped its grinding when I fixed my shift linkage, no double clutching needed. Before I removed all the slop from the shift linkage, double clutching would not have diminished the grinding, nor helped me find 5th gear. (In addition to new bushings and such that I've described in other posts, my car's original owner made a couple of mods where the linkage enters the gear box).
Mark
-
Hahaha... well I find that double clutching the downshifts is the order of the day. I have, however, experienced the terrible grinding when (unintentionally, of coarse) trying to engage reverse during a downshift. I believe some other Europa drivers have experienced this as well, and it can happen on any 3-2 or a 5-4 downshift if one is not diligent. It's the worst sound you will ever hear. How many times will a Europa driver do this, you ask. Well, I've done it more than once, which is far too many times. ...I don't want to hear it again. :o
-
Welcome Ron. Always nice to have fresh flesh................
You'll find little confusion here as to sections, Joe has it pretty straight forward.
As to your question on the pilots license. Try Elan.net, some of the boys are reeeeel smart on those topics.
Mike
-
:Welcome: Hi, Ron. I used to own a blue and white Cessna 150. Colin Chapman's black twin was a statement! Besides advertising his sponsor, though, it occurs to me that a black airplane aloft would be very easy to spot, and a lot wiser than stealth colors like mine. Didn't know that either Chapman or Clark was a pilot though... I was lucky to be able to travel to Germany in 1989, and I was able to see the site, at Hockenheim, of Mr. Clark's demise. Sad. And, I also saw, on the autobahn near Frankfort, the site of the crash that took famous racer (and pilot) Bernt Rosemeyer's life so long ago. Didn't know about either when I was there, but found out afterwards. My brother has a Lola T-342 and it has been a lot of fun watching him deal with "adjustments" on the circuits with it, and seeing him restore it over the years. If you have read any of my previous ramblings here, you'll see that if I had any money, I would be wise to hire the people who help him prepare his Lola for racing, to fix the stuff I insist someday I'll fix myself!! I can't wait to see the answers to your questions!! Dan
-
Mark, Mike, Dan
Thank you all for welcoming me to the forum.
FYI, I can't join the forum that was suggested to find the answer on who was the first pilot. It has been my practice to limit myself to join only one web forum in any given century and I used up my quota this week. However, last night I did some on line research. After looking through a lot of info, I ended up using two sources for information and have drawn my own conclusion. If they are accurate, Mr Chapman was born in 1928 and was a pilot by the time he was 20. The other article stated that Mr Clark was born in 1936 and indicated that he too was a pilot. I will try to send the links to the administrator today for his review and consideration for posting.
I concur, Lotus Joe has done a great job on this forum. And so have all the rest of you that have contributed with your photos, comments and status reports of your Europas.
To those that have never posted a comment on this forum before, I still don't know the answer to my NACA duct question. I am diligently waiting for you to respond to it so the regulars on this forum can chime in. Even if you don't know the answer, take a chance and post what you think the most unlikely option that I suggested is for a NACA duct on a Lotus Type 47 race car and that too will qualify.
Thanks,
Ron
-
O.K I'll bite. Here are some pictures of the real McCoy locally. I'm thinking intake and not brake, as brake would be lower on the body? Considering the angle, or swept up installation of the intake, that would have determined by tunnel testing/air flow ribbons. Or, somehow to draw air out of the cabin in an attempt to vent the poor driver?
Mike
http://www.grandprixclassics.com/FactSheets/1967_Lotus_47GT_60_photos.html
-
that's one gorgeous car, isn't it Mike ?
Anyway, I just know you're wrong on the ducts, clearly it's a safety feature that was way ahead of it's time.
The duct lets air pressure build up in the engine bay. As the car goes faster & faster it reaches a point at which the brakes would no longer work and the driver enters a danger zone so the air pressure raises the rear wheels off the ground & the car slows down.
See ? Obvious really.... ::)
Ok, I haven't a clue. they don't seem to feed anywhere from what I can see.
-
Wow! That is one gorgeous 47. I might have to build a model of that one.
-
I think I'm looking at this all wrong. Not intake......but vent. Perhaps to vent pressure from somewhere or draw/vacuum ?
oh' hell.......I just used up my last brain wave...........
I do like Brians answer about wheels off the ground.
-
I did find in a comment in Wiki that the ducts were added to increase airflow cooling to the engine compartment :confused:
I'm also pretty certain that this is a Banks type 47
(http://www.grandprixclassics.com/FactSheets/More%20Photos/1967_Lotus_47GT_60/03fl3-4.JPG)
-
That's so cool! The back wheels on my S-2 are off the ground right now!!! Dan
-
That extra cooling air flow into the engine bay does make sense Joe. The rear of the car is all open and could easily be a low pressure area (at that tremendous speed I spoke of earlier ::) ) and so it might be possible that the ducts are there to force air through the bay and out the back ?
They look too far back to be a cabin ventilation feature and don't seem connected to any sort of trunking inside the engine bay. And the carbs are only on one side anyway, so you'd only need one for a cool induction feed. A puzzle. Any of our racing guys know ?
Brian
-
:WTF: Cal44... Unbelievably beautiful, but you've got me. Is that an oil catch tank and nitrus up front? I don't see a turbo, nor is it fuel injected. An extremely small air conditioner? Please don't say it's a pressurized windshield washer tank with AN hoses for a push-button pump:)
I don't know what the official answer to the duct question is, but I know what mine are being set up for. I can't tell you, because that wouldn't be in line with Lola T250's request... btw... off-topic... What's it like driving an open wheeled rocket?
-
LeftAngle
OK, I can no longer stand the suspense. I will come up with another newbie question in my pursuit to recruit a new contributor. Please tell me what are the NACA ducts for? And you better not say they are coin slots that you use when pouring money into to make the car go.
BTW...if you were asking about driving my open wheeler to tell you the truth it has a quirk. I am either stuck to the pavement or I am not. And every time I was not and unintentionally departed the asphalt for a view of the infield, the Lola seems to accelerate exponentially. Strange, very strange. Does a Lotus Europa have that tendency?
Ron
-
Please tell me what are the NACA ducts for? And you better not say they are coin slots that you use when pouring money into to make the car go.
:FUNNY: Ron, you clearly are the ideal Lotus owner......
If you're giving in to suspense on the other question about flying, I don't know anything about Jim Clark's history but I have reference that he first flew in the RAF when he would have been a teenager and got his pilot's licence in 1951 at the age of 23. There's a website in memory of CABC with lots of info about him and early Lotus days. This is the link to the "Aviation" page, but it's worth half an hour browsing around the drop down menus as there are lots of interesting snippets in there.
http://www.colinchapmanmuseum.org.uk/General/Interest/Aviation.html (http://www.colinchapmanmuseum.org.uk/General/Interest/Aviation.html)
-
EuropaTC
I enjoyed the link that you provided. I did have a bit of an issue though with the paragraph on Mr. Chapman being a pilot. If I recall correctly, the author used one possibly and two probablies in the same paragraph.
I sent links to the administrator for consideration for posting regarding Mr. Chapman and Mr. Clark. In them I could deduct from their dates of birth that Mr. Chapman was (disclaimer) likely involved with flying before Mr. Clark. So if there was influence, we (disclaimer) probably know which direction the influence it went. If Kantanaman is interested, at the bottom of the article on Mr Clark it indicated that he flew a Comanche (which I think is a Piper).
Let me apologise to the Forum if in my research on the Lotus Europa and my subsequent postings have been off topic for the website. I am taken by the Lotus marque and the Europa is my pick of the litter. I am hopeful that all the Europa owners and drivers out there understand and are aware of just how privileged you are to have a car with such a rich history in its linage. Case in point, there was an individual named Mr. Graham Hill who also drove a Lotus (and was also a pilot). From what I have read he is the only driver to win the triple Crown of Motorsports — the 24 hours of Le Mans, the Indianapolis 500 and Formula One World Championship.
There is no doubt in my mind that I'd reflect on that if I was a Lotus Europa owner whenever I was looking at or waxing that little World Champion Constructors badge on the side of the car.
Still waiting in anticipation for a reply from LeftAngle on the NACA ducts.
Ron
-
Members of the forum
Had I been paying attention, or had Lotus Joe told me there was a picture, I would have put the question of the NACA ducts to bed several posts ago. I found his reference last night. Rephrasing what I took away from it is that the earliest few examples of the Lotus Type 47's that were built did not incorporate the ducts into the bodywork. Excessive temperatures were found occurring in the engine bay and the duct work was incorporated into subsequent cars. Good enough for me. Thank you Lotus Joe.
I think that pretty much clears the questions I asked, and along the way I also learned that double clutching a Europa was not a requirement. Such is the power of the forum by the contributions of it's members.
To a member of the forum that has yet to post a comment it sure would be nice to hear from you. Feel free to reply to the forum on this thread if it will make it easier for you. Maybe you can give a few lines to the forum on why you find the Lotus Europa appealing, advise the forum if you are an owner or enthusiast, or simply mention if you have learned anything from this posting.
Thanks to all,
Lola T250
-
Ron:
Sorry for the delay in responding but life had kept me off the forums for a few days. When I got back on, I failed to check out the second page of this one... Until now... My bad.
Yes, I was referring to your Lola and I don't know if the same thing happens in an Europa, never having driven to the limits you have. I suppose. after I get mine back on the road, I could try and report back to you, but only if I can find a pair of brown trousers to wear before attempting it on the track... In public.
In regards to your duct question, I'd like to add that the openings on the rear deck are located in an area of low pressure. In my analysis of the design, at speed, with no snorkel, air is extracted from them, not the other way around as one would think they'd work. The underneath portion of the car is also a low pressure area and the engine itself is doing its part to further reduce the amount of air pressure and therefore, drag inside the rear of the car. As pressure drops, the air around the engine stops moving, thermal conduction slows, heat builds up and becomes problematic as Lotus Joe stated. The ducts start things moving again, bringing cool air in, mixing with the hot air, lowering the temperature and once more, making things right with the world.
This is only speculation, but I imagine a good part of the reason ducts aren't on all production Europas is because adding ducts (and side mounted fuel fillers) dramatically increases the complexity and cost of the manufacturing process.
I'm adding ducts to my S2, but discovered early on that if the inner skin is left un-modified, incoming air gets trapped inside the wings and between the body and engine compartment skins. With the exception of a couple of very small openings, it can't exit this space until it passes over the wheel wells. That's pretty much at the rear end of the car.
On the left side, I plan to cut an opening in the interior fiberglass skin directly behind the fuel tank so cool(er) and denser air is directed toward the DHOC carb's air intakes.
On the other side, I've glassed off the small openings between the skins, so all the air coming into the duct moves through the inside of the wing and empties into the large empty space at the rear corner (where the tail light and side marker are located). IMHO this is a perfect place to mount a future oil cooler. Having a forced air duct pre-installed will be a great bonus.
At the risk of becoming totally boring, I'm adding a couple of pictures, one of a Type 47 and one of mine. You can see how the 47's duct dumps directly into the engine bay. Mine continues through to the end of the wing section. It's also larger. It needs the additional area to help compensate for the increased friction of the trip to the rear. I also think it looks better:)
Again, sorry for the slow response. I'd like to add that I'm impressed with your creativity and, a bit disappointed that you couldn't scare anyone out of the unpublished pool. I've only been a member for a month or two and now they cant get me to shut up, so keep trying and keep thinking up more good stuff.
Bruce
-
Bruce,
thanks for the update. Since I don't have a life...........keep posting.
Mike
-
LeftAngle,
Thanks for the update on your NACA ducts. You have certainly given it a lot of thought. Have you tried or are you considering any of these in addition to keep the heat down in the engine bay?
Install a dry sump, more oil gives you less heat per quart
Install or upgrade your oil and or transmission coolers
Install insulated wrap on your headers
Install cowl flaps with servos that open additional vents on the engine cover when called for
OK forum, any other ideas?
Lola T250
-
Hi Lola T250,
I'll answer your questions in the order you put them:
The car won't be racing much (if at all) and a dry sump may present potential problems for street cars. What I'll be doing instead, as soon as I get all the parts together, is add a remote oil system. With one or two larger filters, there'll be up to two extra quarts of oil flowing through the motor.
I do plan to put a small radiator in the rear for the oil. As soon as I get a few extra bucks. This is not on my short list, but I am planning the body work around it.
I don't like the look of wraps and have heard they're not good for corrosion. Instead, I'll be painting them with white ceramic and when the cash is in hand, have them powder coated.
Cowl flaps... That's interesting. Have not considered that. A couple of years ago, when I was in the planning stage, I searched unsuccessfully for a clear lexan cover for the engine cover. It's possible short snorkels could be formed in it to force air into the space, or your cowl flaps (much cooler... in the bling sense).
Hmmm....
To the contrary of trying to keep heat away from the interior, I've cut a hole in the firewall between the seats. this for me, is a win/win modification, as with nothing between me and the engine, it's easy for me to access the water hoses, fuel lines, battery, carburetor and spark plug wires from the inside. Last week, I finalized my throttle hookup by sitting on the driver's side floor, moving the throttle pedal with my right hand and adjusting the tension at the Webers with my left. Piece of cake for a job that would normally take 2 people or half an afternoon moving from low sitting position to standing and back again over and over.
There's a cover made with 2 sheets of 3/8" Lexan separated by a 1 1/2" airspace that fits with gaskets to seal the opening. I haven't run the figures to check the U value (it is what it is), but if it's too warm, I'll give up the view for proper insulation. I figure it would be nice to be able to see the engine like motorcyclists do.
If you have information about those cowl flaps, Id be interested in looking at it. I never know what will float my boat:)
Bruce
-
Bruce
I think the upgrades you are considering are good ones. They should help and shouldn't require too much engineering/fabrication.
I have yet to learn how to post a photo but I may be able to guide you to a few ideas if you can do a Google (no affiliation) image search. Try an image search on Cowl Flaps. Look for the photos of old radial engine aircraft that are on the tarmac. The cowl flaps open around the nacelle to assist in the dispensing of the heat. The photos will get you in the ball park. Then image search Retractable Spoilers. Look for the Porches and some Audi's The spoilers deploy and retract when called for. You might use the same approach with a flap on the engine cover to expel heat from the engine bay and when not in use it wouldn't detract from the looks of the car.
I was curious if anyone had made an access panel in the firewall between the seats to gain access to the engine. Now I know, thanks.
Lola T250
-
Thanks. I know what cowl flaps are. I just thought you knew of specific devices that are available. I think the idea about a sliding rear window (which wouldn't be all that difficult, especially if it were made of lexan or plexi... Or modify the original glass window to slide up and down on tracks mounted at the corners behind the seats) would be the most efficient way to cool down.
As ar as the pass-through goes, it's been done for a long time. The first instance I remember was documented in an issue of ReMarque, probably in the mid 80s ( I tried to locate it, but wasn't successful). If I recall, the hole was made temporarily, but don't remember if it was permanently covered over after the job was done, or if a cover plate was added. I don't know if anyone else has ever turned the portal into a bling statement with lights and clear lexan though.
I do know I'll be thumbing through these magazines again shortly. They've been gathering dust on my shelf, but I came across a fair number of interesting articles about topics that are currently being discussed on this, as well as the Yahoo site.
For example, March 87 tells how to lower your Europa and August of 85 shows a design for a window vent (if you haven't already figured out, I'm writing these down now, so I can use this as reference when I pass on the information:). Oh ya, February 83 has a long article on Europa overheating... No flaps mentioned:), but plenty of other creative modifications are covered.
If I come across the pass-through article, I'll give a head's up and let you know if there's anything specific you (or I) need to know, but for now, I'll head over to the other threads and impart some of my discovery on those other subjects, then I'm diving into those back issues:)
Bruce