Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Steve_Lindford on Saturday,November 19, 2016, 04:07:12 AM
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Now I have my MOT I am checking a few more things. The plugs are NGK BP7EV - the gaps are 19, 31, 25, 27 thou. When I check their website - they will not give information about plug gaps - as they are supposed to be preset - and also impossible to reset without damaging the electrode. I wasn't expecting that! I'm thinking of changing to BP6 but I think I could improve the gaps on the plugs I have first.
Steve
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25 thou.
That is what I always had on N9Ys in my Cooper S. Seemed to work well.
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:I-agree:
Workshop manual says .023/.025
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Which engine: Renault or TC?
Stock point ignition or?
Stock coil or?
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I think I fitted BP6 ES plugs on mine Steve. I'm lazy and just left them gapped as they came out of the box, I think it's 0.025" and if I ever had to adjust that's what I use. It's worth checking what NGK sets them at now because with electronic ignitions they seem to run wider gaps, the Bosch ones I've just fitted to the Elise were factory set at 0.040".
There was a bit of debate about heat ranges on plugs for the TC and although the manual used to recommend N7Y there was a feeling that a hotter grade worked better on a road car. Certainly I remember N7Y plugs getting sooty on my daily commute and fitting a slightly hotter plug seemed better, the BP6 is roughly the N9Y equivalent IIRC & hence hotter than the N7Y.
Brian
ps - how's life with the Europa now you can drive it in public ? Getting used to looking up at lorry mudguards yet ? :)
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Sorry - TC all very original - standard points and coil... I didnt realise it would make a difference to the plug gaps. The plugs have looked a bit sooty and from the research from the forums it seems likely a hotter plug will suit.
As for driving - I'm keeping it at home in a Marley concrete garage - and with the swings in temperature there have been massive condensation problems on the car - not only on the engine but even on the inside instruments and plastic fabric! It looked as if someone had got a hose out and sprayed everything (Same problem with a motorbike in my shed - so I will probably bring that into my dining room). Not surprisingly I flattened the battery trying to start the car. The second time I tried to start it - I noticed the glass bowl on the mechanical fuel pump had an air gap from half way up and it hadn't changed. I checked the float chamber and it was empty - so bought a kit to service the pump. The fuel lines seemed to be clear of sediment but I will probably add a filter.
The tricky thing about rebuilding the pump - is adding the 2 valves. I thought they would be a tolerance fit - but I can see that when they were originally fitted the sides are stamped to distort the surrounding metal to hold them in place - as shown in the photo. I had to file off these small lips to add the new ones then stamp it again - and I cant say I am happy with the standard of my work - so could be storing up a problem for the (near) future.
I would like to keep the car original so for now I don't want to change pump or ignition system - but if it is massively unreliable - I will think about it. I haven't even checked the points yet - If I take the carbs off to get to them - do I need to buy some new sealing rings when refitting them?? - and how do I decide how tight to fit them if they are supposed to be a loose fit?? - standard Dellorto.
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Might be worth investing in a dehumidifier for your garage? There is also www.permabag.co.uk which looks like an interesting solution. Cheers, John
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I haven't even checked the points yet - If I take the carbs off to get to them - do I need to buy some new sealing rings when refitting them?? - and how do I decide how tight to fit them if they are supposed to be a loose fit?? - standard Dellorto.
You can get to the points with only minor damage to your arms without removing the carbs but it's far easier to take out the distributor... :)
If you go that route, make sure you set the engine at TDC firing on #1 before pulling the distributor because that will make replacement much easier. Again you don't need to remove the carbs for that job, and it's probably slightly easier than trying to fit and adjust the points with the distributor fitted to the engine.
I don't have the details to hand but there's a page in the manual about fitting the carbs should you go that route, you measure the compression on the thackeray washers. A mirror and torch is about the only way to check what's happening underneath the carbs, worth doing because it's easy to overtighten them.
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Then stick with the standard 0.025 gap. Pay attention when buying plugs and don't get wide gap plugs meant for modern applications as it is hard to bend the electrode that much and maintain a square gap. If you were using pertronix with a 3.0 ohm coil, then you could run 0.030 gaps.
You can use an automatic centre punch to "crimp" the sides to retain the new pump valves. No problems with the many pumps I have done this way.
Some say you can get the distributor out without removing the carbs on a Europa TC/S. I have only worked on TCs in Elans and +2s and the carbs have to come off on those. Regardless how you proceed, put the car in 4th gear and move the car to turn over the engine so the rotor arm points straight up. Then take it out of 4th gear so you don't accidentally turn the engine. Undo the single bolt holding the distributor to the block (this preserves a rough ignition timing setting). As you withdraw the distributor, the rotor will turn. Not its final position as a guide when you go to refit.
Fit the points carefully!
Many point sets do not have the rubbing block square to the distributor cam. This leads to rapid wear and suddenly retarded timing. Tweak the points to make sure the rubbing block is square. Make sure you lube the rubbing block with a heavy grease. I use point grease but it's getting hard to find these days. VW performance shops carry it. Lube the mechanical advance with a light oil while you are in there: shaft and weight pivot points.
Refitting the carbs correctly is moderately straight forward. Just tighten the retaining nuts slowly and evenly until the thackery washers are reduced to the correct spec:
http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/tcwork/l/index.htm#8
These are the best carb gasket/o-rings:
http://www.rallynuts.com/user/products/large/CSP001_600.png
All the Lotus/Weber/Dell places carry them.
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OK that gives me something to think about. I probably will take the carbs off to get to the points. I have a feeling one of the throttle pumps is not working - and it would make that job easier. When the car starts - it ticks over really nicely after around 5 seconds - so I feel everything is set up reasonably well.
The condensation thing may only happen infrequently - Im not sure. It only happens when there is a big temperature change from cold to warm. I haven't had any experience of dehumidifiers - but as the garage is quite drafty (which in some respects is a good thing as it gives ventilation) it could be I would be dehumidifying the surrounding garden as well as the garage.
Thanks everyone...
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Just throwing my two cents into the discussion here;
I am running NKG BP6 plugs, as recommended by Ken Grey at Dave Bean. He specifically recommended against the BP7 for road use claiming plug fouling could result. The BP6 plugs are definitely a better choice for my car, though my worn carbs are running a bit rich which makes the plug's job a bit more difficult. When ignition performance is not up to snuff I do incur plug fouling.
My Twin Cam is all original including the points ignition, but with a Lucas gold sports coil fitted. I typically run my point gaps .025" - .026". I check and gap my plugs often, occasionally playing with varying plug gaps when in an experimental mood, especially since the addition of the Lucas gold coil.
I also fiddle with points a lot, and have fitted many sets of points, and never remove the carbs to do so nor ever felt the need to. You get good at it after a bit, and have done them on the road side on a couple of occasions. I good inspection mirror and flashlight is necessary. Remove the boot tub to gain good access. Mine is not fastened in place and is easily pulled out when needed. John's suggestion to put the car in high gear and move the car to turn the engine works a treat, though I do this somewhat differently; I put the shifter in high gear, then place the pad of a floor jack under the RR lower spring mount and jack the RR wheel just clear of the floor, which permits me to rotate the wheel whilst peering through the window in the bellhousing to put the engine in the position I desire for points setting, timing, etc. Pulling he plugs first makes this much easier, though with a 5th gear it can be done without pulling them.
The points on the market today for these ignition systems are garbage. Most of the point sets I buy come in the Lucas green box, but do not expect OEM quality. The production has all long since been farmed out to the lowest bidder. The little green boxes contain point sets in one of two distinct variants for the part number. When I open a new box either set could be in there, and I have come to refer to them as the 'bad points' and the 'ugly points', the bad points being the preferable variant. There are numerous visual cues to tell them apart. I have had several sets of the 'bad' points lose their gap quickly due to rubbing blocks that are not square with the cam and rubbing blocks that when viewed with an eye loupe have significant porosity. I have had two sets of 'ugly' points fail prematurely, one set only went 30 kms before failing outright, and a third set I couldn't even install because the threaded post had deformed threads. The 'ugly' points also burn and foul the contacts quickly. I currently have my highest milage set re-fitted, from the summer of 2013, because they remain my most reliable set and all of the remaining sets I had in stock were either failing or deemed not worthy to install. I now have six new sets I bought from Dave Bean last year that are reportedly of decent quality, but haven't tried them yet. They are the only sets I have bought that did not come in the little green box.
Another note about points; The 23D distributor used on Twin Cam engines was used in many other applications as well. However, the points specified for Lotus and Cooper applications use a stiffer spring than the more mundane applications. It is difficult to tell, but I imagine that the vast majority of point sets available to us are of the softer spring variety, despite the fact a part number for a Lotus application may have been ordered. This will likely effect ignition performance at higher revs. I forget the actual spring rates, but if I recall the regular spring is a 28oz spring vs the Lotus/Cooper variant which I believe is 32 oz (Please do not quote me on these spring specs as I may have gotten them quite wrong).
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It's interesting that you still use points! When I first started racing, back before electronic ignitions were common (maybe before they were available at all), we used a spring scale to measure the spring tension on the points to keep from having point bounce at high revs. I don't remember what tension we were looking for, but 32 oz. sounds likely (keep in mind that was over 40 years ago so Bainford's caveat applies here as well). I would expect that whatever spring you get with your points would be good for at least 5000 rpm and should be good to 6000, but I don't know that for sure. I'd be curious to know if you could tell any difference in performance from different plug gaps. I wouldn't think you could tell.
Pertronix ignition was recommended on another thread and John gave a gap spec for using it earlier on this thread. I'd repeat that recommendation. For those who are paranoid, I have heard of people who bought an extra points plate with pre gapped points attached that they keep in their glove box so they don't feel dependent on the black magic of Hall effect ignitions.
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I forget the actual spring rates, but if I recall the regular spring is a 28oz spring vs the Lotus/Cooper variant which I believe is 32 oz (Please do not quote me on these spring specs as I may have gotten them quite wrong).
I always thought it was the 32oz mini cooper S points that were the preferred ones as well. They might be easier to find in the UK with the Coopers being quite sought after these days.
Brian
edit to add.... that's quite an impressive record with CB points Bainford, I would have given up at "30kms set", so you're a far better man than me. The observations are interesting, I've heard people complaining about the quality of some parts these days, I'd never have guessed there were so many ways to make "bad" points !
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Thanks Bainford for that long reply. Seems like a bit of a minefield - not what I was expecting. I think I will check my points but not necessarily change them as I could be making more problems for myself. Part of the problem of accessing the distributor is having a decent light which is small enough - and having a pair of glasses that doesn't fall off my nose when I lead forward. It would be easier if I had a quick release for the rear lid too...
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A minefield it is, Steve. However, my apparent masochistic tendencies aside, the Pertronix electronic distributor is probably the way to go. They are relatively inexpensive and seem to have very good reliability. The only issue I am aware of with fitting it to the Europa is sometimes it interferes with the operation of the tach. If it does, there is an easy fix which involves changing the location from which the tach gets its signal. A forum member, possibly Europa TC (Brian) posted some info on this fix a couple years ago. If you do choose the Pertronix ignition the coil may need to be changed as well to a unit with the proper specification. The best bet here is to use their excellent Flame Thrower coil.
I actually have two of these Pertronix distributors new in the box sitting on the shelf in my garage, one with vacuum advance and one without. If ordering a new distributor, I believe the non-vacuum advance is the right choice for the Europa. I will be giving one of these a try eventually, though I have been told that they are not compatible with my solid core ignition leads. The RF energy given off by solid core leads will apparently destroy the electronic module in time. I emailed Pertronix to query this and they confirmed, and said that even with resistor caps fitted at the plug end of the leads (which I have) they will not guarantee the reliability of the electronic module. However many people online say they have no issues with this set up, so it sounds like a crap shoot.
Regarding the low quality of replacement parts for Lucas ignitions, it is not limited to points. There is a company in the UK called Distributor Doctor who have undertaken to produce OEM quality parts for these old distributors. They do make a points set but unfortunately it is not for the 23D distributor. However they do make distributor caps, rotors, and other bits of superior quality. I once had a nagging ignition issue that I found difficult to cure. I replaced the condenser with a new unit (in the Lucas green box) and the problem disappeared for a couple weeks then returned. Reading of the low quality of Lucas replacement parts I decided to order the OEM quality condenser from Distributor Doctor which has cured the problem for the last two driving seasons. Check here http://www.distributordoctor.com/ for more info.
@BDA; Thanks for the interesting insights on points use 'back in the day'. I will try the points spring measuring trick you mentioned to see how the various sets I've been using stack up.
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FYI: Lucas Sport coils (gold) have the correct resistance and work well with a Pertronix unit.
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(part Quote)
though I have been told that they are not compatible with my solid core ignition leads. The RF energy given off by solid core leads will apparently destroy the electronic module in time. I emailed Pertronix to query this and they confirmed, and said that even with resistor caps fitted at the plug end of the leads (which I have) they will not guarantee the reliability of the electronic module. However many people online say they have no issues with this set up, so it sounds like a crap shoot.
At the risk of digressing off topic, I've heard the same about copper cored leads with pretty much all of the common aftermarket electronic ignition systems and it puzzles me a lot, so if anyone is an expert on this, shout out !
I can understand why copper leads with NON-resistive caps might be a problem but struggle to understand why copper leads plus 5k caps are no longer suitable. I did buy modern leads for my first attempt with the Elan but.... AFAIK the resistance is dependent upon the length of the lead so if you cut them as short as possible you get less than the 5k of a copper lead/cap, or if you have long leads then you're putting more resistance in the circuit according to my meter.
But it's the coil doing the sparks, the CB points or Pertronix are surely just there as a switching device, so isn't more resistance a bad idea ? I ended up with the usual Lucas sports coil, copper leads & NGK caps plus carrying a spare pair of CB points/Condensor in case the internet is right and it suddenly fries itself.... ::)
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This wire situation is a bit worrying! I believe I have stainless steel core HT leads and I don't have resistance plugs or any resistor in the plug connector. I haven't had any problems (yet) but I probably have less than 5000 miles (but could be marginally more) on my Pertronix. Like Brian, I'm at a loss to understand why the HT lead would be an issue for what is really a switching unit but then you don't have to get very deep into electronics before I'm at a loss to understand anything - it seems like if it would be a problem for anything, it would be for the coil. Maybe it's worth a call to Pertronix...
Edit:
I looked around and found out that Pertronix makes plug wires. I think if you call them, they'd point you to them. They make the modern size 8mm size in cool colors but they won't fit in the side wire 23D cap so you'd need to get the "stock-look" black wires. They don't make a set for the TC so I don't think you can be certain that all the wires will be long enough if you get a 4 cylinder set (and certainly don't have a set for a BDA!) so I think a 6 cylinder set like this one (https://smile.amazon.com/Pertronix-706101-Flame-Thrower-Custom-Cylinder/dp/B004OXPTC8/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1479855261&sr=1-1&keywords=pertronix+7mm+plug+wires) might be the best bet. Of course, they also sell their own distributors, including a 23D replacement that probably would take the 8mm wires if you need a new distributor or just have to have spark plug wires in cool colors!
Edit again:
Reading Pertronix's admonition against solid core HT leads, it appears to say that any suppression wires are appropriate. My reading is that they expect that using solid core HT leads would interfere with the electronics and functionality rather than damage them:
"You cannot use solid core (typically copper) spark plug wires with this product. Solid core wires do not suppress electro magnetic interference (EMI) which will interfere with electronics in this product. A suppression style or spiral wound spark plug wires must be used."
So it might be that if you are getting away with solid core HT leads with your Pertronix unit, you should be happy that you're apparently getting away with murder so you should just smile and continue driving.... But you apparently don't need their own wires...
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(part quote)
"You cannot use solid core (typically copper) spark plug wires with this product. Solid core wires do not suppress electro magnetic interference (EMI) which will interfere with electronics in this product. A suppression style or spiral wound spark plug wires must be used."
That was the bit I puzzled over, although I can understand how an non-suppressed lead can cause EMI because in the olden days I had a Sprite with cute little plug caps that weren't resistive and the radio was a constant crackle as soon as the engine started. ( I think it's illegal to run such a system over here now, but that could just as easily be another internet myth. )
I read it as "you need some resistance" and inferred my own dubious logic that if the radio wasn't crackling, I'd got enough there. (yes, I know, little knowledge, dangerous things.... ::) ) Anyway that was my logic in keeping copper leads with NGK caps - the radio works.
Incidentally you hit on both of the snags I met on my trial with modern leads; the first set, despite being assured would fit a TC were way too short and needed to go back, with measurements of what would fit. They arrived and then were too big for the (new) distributor cap. Much bodging and shaving of insulation got them in and working but I wasn't comfortable with the bodges or the plug connectors which felt flimsy compared with the NGK caps, so I went back to the old leads.....
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If you compare the secondary ignition voltage traces from suppressed and unsuppressed ignition wires, you will see a huge difference in the amplitude of the ignition "after-shocks". Remember that what happens in the secondary circuit affects the primary circuit as well. So unsuppressed secondary circuits can create significant voltage spikes in the primary circuit. This is what may fry an electronic module.
Many people think that resistance in the ignition secondary circuit is a bad thing. Actually, it's not. What fires the mixture is not the spark but the ionization of the plug gap. Using resistor plugs and wires reduces the "spark" and increases spark plug life as well as controlling RFI. Whether the resistance in the secondary circuit is created by using resistor wire or resistor connectors does not matter. I favour resistor connectors such as spark plug caps as they seem to last longer than resistor wire.
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Your posts are almost always an education, John! I have another set of connectors that will fit with my BDA that may or may not be resistance connectors. I assume I can check the resistance with a multi-meter. What resistance should I be looking for?
Edit:
I should learn look before I type. It says 3k ohms on the side of the connector. I would guess that's enough. Now I just have to figure out how to connect a wire to it!
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Good post John, you're way, way ahead of me on this one but your explanation is simple so I can just about get there. From what you're implying in the last couple of sentences it sounds like I might not need my spare CB points after all..... :)
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Pertronix units can die if you do not follow the instructions, or are careless.
- Make sure your coil has the recommended primary resistance. Too low and the excess current flow will fry the module.
- Do not hook up the red and black wires backwards. Seems pretty basic to me. Right up there with don't put small children into blenders. However some people struggle with this one. Use red and black paint markers on the coil terminals and red and black heat shrink on the wires.
- Disconnect the pertronix unit if you are going to leave the ignition on for a long time. You should also disconnect the points wire on a standard ignition in the same situation as it can fry the points as well. I have never had a problem with this but some people say it is an issue. Given that you can fry points as well this way, I'd call it even.
- Don't cary a spare points plate. You would have to reset the timing if you swapped points back in. Just carry a spare pertronix module. Smaller to carry, quicker and simpler to change and no resetting required.
Back onto resistance in the secondary circuit:
- stock ignition? Don't use BOTH resistor plugs and regular resistor wires. Might get to be too much for the stock system to handle at high revs. It's ok as long as the wire resistance is below 5K ohms but above that might mean problems.
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Thanks for the additional info, John!
I thought I had read somewhere that earlier units were at risk if the ignition was left on for too long (don't remember the definition of "too long"), but that later ones were designed so that wasn't a problem. I know I mistakenly left my ignition on for probably five or ten minutes and it didn't seem to hurt my unit.
I just found the documentation for my Pertronix and it says:
Q: What happens when I leave the ignition switch on when the engine is not running?
A: This can cause your coil to overheat which sometimes will cause permanent damage to the coil and the Ignitor (Pertronix unit).
More evidence that I'm often luckier than I deserve and my memory is sometimes a poor source of information!
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Thanks for the info, John. Very helpful stuff in gaining further understanding.
- Don't cary a spare points plate. You would have to reset the timing if you swapped points back in. Just carry a spare pertronix module. Smaller to carry, quicker and simpler to change and no resetting required.
Should I decide to ditch my points, which will eventually happen, this is intended my course of action. I need to identify the necessary replaceable parts, and determine cost and availability. I haven't looked into it yet but I assume the procedure is straightforward.
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Pertronix sells service parts so you can keep a spare "module". Replacing it should not affect your timing (but I'd still check it after I installed it). You can use Google to find the best deals. Here is the Pertronix ignition catalog:
http://www.pertronix.com/catalogs/pdf/ptx/2015/Pertronix2015.pdf