Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: 460384 on Friday,October 02, 2015, 08:13:25 AM
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I have a spare Ford 1600 x-flow (711M block) push-rod engine and want to know if it is possible to put in my S1. I know it will work in a TC/TCS cars without any issues. What about the S1? Is the frame too narrow in the front? Do I need a TC/TCS bell housing for the Renault 4-speed trans? I think this install will be the same as putting a Ford TC or Zetec in a S1or S2. Correct?
I will need to replace the S1 frame as well. If I am going to use the 1600 x-flow engine, what would be the best frame to get with? So I do not have to do much modification. Please advise.
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I'm not sure about the frame, but I suspect you'd be better off modifying yours rather than swapping it if the Ford doesn't fit. I don't think the frames are interchangeable - I know they are different between the TC and S2.
You will need a TC bell housing for the block attachment. I strongly suspect that the tranny bolt patter is the same on all the Renault trannies you'd consider.
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BDA is correct on the bell housing, you need a TC one, all Fords basically have the same fitment. On the engine fitment I would check the width of the front of a 711 block compared to the renault unit. I know the TC won't fit but that maybe the Lotus front timing cover and if you are running it as a std crossflow there is more space, whether it's enough or not I don't know.
Dave
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I'm sure some of the S1 owners will be along with the definitive answer but my guess is like BDA, the front fork of the chassis will be too tight. The block is going to be as per TC block as far as approximate dimensions go, and that's all down at chassis level. The heads are wider of course, but that's hanging in fresh air, it's the block & sump where the clearance is needed, and if they had to change the chassis for the TC then the same will go for the 711 block I'd guess.
The 47 had a TC engine fitted, but if you look at the drawings it's clear Lotus were doing major mods under the skin. I think that's a big project, not impossible by any means but not something to enter into lightly.
Brian
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Brian,
You are probably right, but the std crossflow has a much smaller timing case so the engine assembly is narrower at the front and it may be worth measuring up if nobody has done it before. The Zetec has the timing belts on the front that take up space probably more than the TC
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Thank you for all your input. I will measure the block width and height in front of both engines and see... The Renault engine without the head still in my S1. Will share the measurements. I think the S1 and S2 frame dimensions are the same.
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What's the market like for S1s in the US? If it was over here I think I'd want to keep it close to original. You've got to have a car that you want to drive as well though...
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What's the market like for S1s in the US? If it was over here I think I'd want to keep it close to original. You've got to have a car that you want to drive as well though...
Despite the way I mess about with my cars I tend to agree in principle. There are only so many S1's around and if any Europa model is going to become a serious classic it's going to be the 47 followed closely by the S1. So although I'd want something to drive I'd also want any mods to be in the spirit of the original, like sticking with a Renault engine or if really stretched, trying to get a TC in there for a 47 replica.
But going back to the "will it fit ?" question, I have vague recollections that it's not just the width at the front but the overall length being different. And it will of course alter the weight distribution with proportionately less over the front wheels, so you might need to consider suspension changes.
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Yes... there are some interesting renault engines to consider too... Clio 182 lump maybe? I wonder if they still have the same gearbox bolt pattern?
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S1 body and frame are bonded together is always a concern for Europa collectors. The price for excellent ones ranged from $11K to 18K from the recent market. They are way less than the TC/TCS which about $25K for a good one. I would like to rebuild the original Renault but the parts are hard to get and performance parts are very limited. At the best, you can get about 80-90 HP.
As for the Kent engine, parts are easy to get. You can get 120-150 HP without trying to hard. I have a spare 711M block Kent engine with high compression pistons, big valves, and side draft Weber 40 DCOE. It is sitting in my shop and waiting for me to put it together. If it will go in the S1 without major modifications to the car, I would love to use it. Of course, I will keep the original, number matching Renault engine for the next owner.
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Hi Tom,
I think that it is possible to get more out of your S1 engine than you think. Have a look at what Valero is doing as his engine should generate 120-130hp and I have just flow tested a modified 821 head and the reading indicates 130hp.
I have an early S2 with the 1470 Renault engine and wanted to keep it original partly so I can run it in historic racing and partly to preserve the look. Good luck, either way you will have a fantastic car when it is done.
Cheers,
Willa.
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I remember reading, in the 70's, a magazine article where a Ford crossflow engine was fitted to an S2. There was no talk of any problems with fouling the chassis. I remember that alternator was driven by a shaft mounted on a bearing carrier bolted to the right hand side of the head.
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I remember reading, in the 70's, a magazine article where a Ford crossflow engine was fitted to an S2. There was no talk of any problems with fouling the chassis. I remember that alternator was driven by a shaft mounted on a bearing carrier bolted to the right hand side of the head.
Thank you for the info. I would love to find the article for the x-flow engine swap. Do you have any idea where I can find the magazine? I searched on-line without luck so far.
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I mainly read two magazines in the 60's and early 70's. English 'Car' and 'Cars and Car Conversions'. Surprisingly, I think it may have been in 'Car'. I say surprisingly as they were mainly interested in new car tests.