Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Gmg31 on Monday,July 27, 2015, 10:52:55 AM
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just drained my gearbox oil and wondered what members recommend as a replacement. just searched my workshop manual and can't find it. Ive got some Mobil 85w90 from another project.
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Standard 80 manual gearbox oil. It takes about 2 litres.
It takes a while to drain out of the bottom, so go make a cup of tea or coffee while it is still dripping.
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I use a transaxle oil for my 365 gearbox, Castrol Syntrans Transaxle 75W-90, for the 365 the filling is 1,6l
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Thank you, Im leaving it overnight
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I like Redline 75W90NS. When I first got my car on the road, the NG3 I got had a rough shift into 2nd gear. I took my car to a very good shop (they restored Mario Andretti's Alfa F1 car, they prepare vintage race cars, and they work on high end sports cars like Ferraris and Jaguars... you get the idea). When I told him about the rough shift, he said to use Redline oil. I didn't believe him, but after I asked a couple of others who agreed with him and then changing to Redline and it smoothed out, I'm a believer now. It's not cheap, but I'm sold.
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Resurrecting an old thread here.
In topping up the oil in my 336 gearbox, I used up my last half quart bottle of Castrol 80W/90 Hypoy C gear oil, the gearbox is still not topped up and none of the local auto parts stores carry Castrol gear oil anymore. I'm wondering what peoples thoughts are on mixing gearbox lubricants. I do not know what the previous owner used in the 336.
After thinking about this, I've decided to drain the gearbox of the old oil and refill with Redline 50205 synthetic MTL 75W80 GL4 which I've already ordered.
Joji Tokumoto
Fallbrook, Ca
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Oils are designed to be ok to mix with other oils of the same rating.
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Thanks. Not knowing what the previous owner used in the 336, I've decided to drain and refill with the Redline.
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I have always used Redline MTL in my Elan's gearbox and it works great. But the warning is not to use it in the diff as it uses Hypoid gears and the Redline 75W90 GL5 is the one to use. But isn't the Diff in the 365 a Hypoid gear? I also found this on the web on http://www.syncro.org/Oils.htm :
DO NOT use REDLINE in the transaxle We used to recommend Redline oil for the transaxle based on the advice of Redline techs and on the advice of rebuilders. Redline has since changed its formulation (removing zinc compounds) and the rebuilders have concluded that Redline use now contributes to premature ring and pinion failure, especially if you have an engine with more power and torque than stock. Thus, it is recommended that Redline not be used in the transaxle.
The recommendation from this site says to use Swepco 210 oil and even as a GL5, it does not contain any harmful or corrosives chemicals to our older syncros. Apparently GL4 is the safe oil for our cars and most GL5 oils have these harmful ingredients.
According to the factory manual, the gearbox oil should be 80 weight gear oil like the Castrol Hypoy Light or Shell Spirax 80, so basically a Hypoid oil because of the diff ring and pinion. So I am not so sure if MTL or MT90 is the way to go in these transaxles.
I'm still searching for more information, so if anyone has something to add, please feel free to chime in. Thanks Allan
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There are hypoid final drives and there are hypoid final drives. Many US solid axle diffs had their pinion gear so low it was practically falling out the bottom. The stress on the diff gears was enormous and they even chewed up special oils in short order. Some transaxles also have a the pinion gear offset from the ring gears centre line by quite a bit and the use of hypoid gear oils is VERY important. It is also true that the Renault transaxles use hypoid final drive gears. However, all that said, the pinion is only very slightly offset from the ring gear's centre line so any increase in stress between the gears is minimal. Finally, people have been using the non-hypoid gear oils in the Renault transaxles for decades with no problem.
Here is cross section of a 336 transaxle showing how the pinion aligns with the ring gear:
http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/s2work/f/big/fig4.jpg
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As a comparison, here are two cross sections of typical hypoid diffs:
http://machinedesign.com/site-files/machinedesign.com/files/uploads/2015/04/Hypoid%20Gear_2_0.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Sprocket35b.jpg
As you can easily imagine, the increase in stress is enormous as the teeth "wipe" across each other.
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I have been using Red Line MTL for Elan gearbox and 75W90 gear oil in the diff for years. I was hoping that I could also use in the Europa.
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Great information here! As I stated above, I've been using Red Line but what I didn't say is that I also asked Red Line for their recommendation for oil in a Renault Fuego (I have an NG3) and they recommended their 75W90NS. Of course, they aren't going to recommend a competitor's oil and their recommendation may not be good. However, I am looking at the NG3 manual and the pinion is almost in the center of the ring gear (not surprising since the 365 and NG3 are essentially interchangeable). As John noted, the real question is just how "hypoid" the ring and pinion are. I'd say we Red Line users are in good shape and that you're safe using any appropriate gear oil so I think we can breath a little easier!
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I brought up this subject as I was about to go through my 365 transaxle and started to look into recommended oils. I'm a big fan of Redline and almost use it exclusively in my race cars and vintage cars like most of the people on this site, especially in our Elans as it does make a difference. But on my vintage Porsches, the community believes that the Swepco 210 is the oil of choice. And it is a synthetic hypoid oil. Needless to say, with the limited use that these cars now have to undergo, I think the Redline would be fine, and the points everybody makes does sound reasonable. But a few things are still sticking in my head:
1) Redline warns that the MTL and MT90 oils are not to be used with hypoid gears.
2) A non marque gearbox only forum indicates that while it was ok in the past to use Redline MTL and MT90 in transaxles, it is no longer recommended as they removed the zinc from the formulation and it was found to cause damage to the ring gear and pinion. I have to assume the zinc allowed the gears to swipe easier.
3) Redline recommends the use of their 75W90NS which is a Hypoid oil for the Renault Transaxle and not the MTL or MT90.
4) Factory specs is for a Hypoid oil.
So now with this said, I fully understand and agree that the Renault transaxle has less of a swipe across the gears. But it still does have some. And again, with the miles put on these cars it most likely does not matter, maybe. But since the Porsche community has been using the Swepco 210 product in their transaxles for ages, and the fact that it is a hypoid oil, I think the safer bet would be to just use the Swepco product or the Redline 75W90NS, especially with the change in formulation with the Redline MT products. But as of this point, I think I will be using the Swepco product as it is in my vintage 911's and later Porsches. Just saying. Thanks Allan
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Thanks for all the research Alan. You convinced me and I ordered a gallon of Swepco 210 ($87 on Amazon).
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Good discussion. I choose Redline Lightweight Shock Proof.
https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=43&pcid=7 (https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=43&pcid=7)
From the Redline site they claim:
"Film thickness greater than an SAE 75W140, yet low fluid friction like 80W gear oil or 30W motor oil
Excellent low-temp flow, improved cold shifting
For racing differentials under moderate loads
Popular in racing transmissions like Hewland and other Road Racing dog-ring boxes, Bert and Brinn for Stock Cars, G-Force, and Liberty clutchless for Drag Racing"
I'll admit that I like it for the simple fact that it stays sky blue. When I see a drip under the car, I know exactly where it came from.
Dean
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I found out some more information from my friends in the Porsche community that may be helpful. Swepco 210 is the oil of choice for track day cars and spirited driving and the Swepco 201 is for moderate and occasional driving. Both are reported to improve shifts and are long lasting. They also use Swepco 203 which is a moly blend which prevents overheating and oil consumption on high HP cars like the 911 Turbo, but I think that would be overkill in our cars. The 201 sports an ingredient called Lubium which apparently coats the internal parts and provides a protective film and most likely the reason they use it in non daily drivers. The 201 is a true EP oil (excessive pressure) and is a Hypoid oil. And finally, all these oils are blue lol.
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I know this is an old thread, but it's gearbox oil I'm asking about!
What are the current oil recommendations ( in the UK) for road use in the 365 transaxle?
Thanks,
Richard.
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I recently switched from Millers 80w-90 to Swepco 210. They both don't attack yellow metals, but the Swepco is higher viscosity. I was getting gear knock at idle in neutral with the Millers oil. However, my car has a high lift cam and an aluminum flywheel, which makes the idle somewhat lumpy.
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The most important thing is that you regularly check the oil level until you get a handle on consumption. Yes, they all leak at least a little bit and 5th gear is the first gear to be left high and dry. My transaxle hardly leaks anything. I check it at the start of the season, mid way through, and before any trip.
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I posted earlier in this thread that I use Red Line 75W90NS but I discussed it with the tech guy at Red Line and he said a GL-5 is not necessary because the offset of the pinion to the crown gear isn't enough so he suggested their MT85 which is their 75W85 GL-4 gear oil. I like Red Line products but I think any good gear oil (GL-4 or GL-5) from 75 to 90 wt. would do. As JB says, the important thing is to make sure you always have oil in it.
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as my old boss used to say when someone complained about oil leaks on British Classics 'The time to worry is when it stops leaking oil'
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My son's 2 wheel drive, 5 speed Jeep Cherokee was so bad you could barely shift into second.....with Redline MTL it will now shift.....the stuff is awesome ! (I am sure the Jeep could use new synchro at some point)
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I use Red Line too, currently the GL-4 MTL mentioned by BDA but it's SAE 75/80. I remember noticeably improved gearchanges the first time I used it.
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I run Redline MT-90. The 1st - 2nd shift is noticeably better when cold.
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I did a lot of searching when my Nissan truck trans with 250k miles started grinding pretty bad on 2nd-3rd shifts that had fresh Valvoline GL4 in it. I ended up with Motorcraft XT-M5-QS, it's made by Castrol for Ford. After about 500 miles it felt like new, has 334k on it now. Many Miata people use it for what it does with syncros. Ford specs it for Transaxles and I run it on a Toyota transaxle too. It's full synthetic so it's not cheap, none are though.
Read the reviews on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Ford-XT-M5-QS-Synthetic-Transmission/dp/B000NUES82
https://www.motorcraft.com/content/dam/ford-motorcraft/en_us/motorcraft_global/products/lubricants/quick_reference_charts/manual%20transmission%20fluid%20chart.pdf
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I use Driven GO 80W-90 Conventional GL-4 Gear Oil. It is specifically formulated for vintage street and race cars with yellow metal. Made from Pennsylvania oil. It was spec'd by Joe Gibbs from Joe Gibbs Racing (use to be his company). I have a 352 gearbox with an aluminum flywheel and a bored and stroked, high compression, Twin Cam motor with Hot Street Cams.
https://drivenracingoil.com/i-30497794-go-80w-90-conventional-gl-4-gear-oil.html
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If you have one type of oil in the transmission and want to switch to a different one, say a synthetic, can you just drain the old oil and fill with new? Or should there be a flush cycle of some sort?
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If you have one type of oil in the transmission and want to switch to a different one, say a synthetic, can you just drain the old oil and fill with new? Or should there be a flush cycle of some sort?
I switched from regular to synthetic with a drain and refill. It took 500 ish miles before the syncros started to work better. I don't think a flush works on manuals. You can't get the old oil out of the syncros. The new oil has to work its way in.
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Don't "flush" a transaxle. Debris settles in nooks and crannies and is no problem as it is stable. Introducing a flushing agent and the deposits are "cleaned" out, mix with the oil and circulate through your bearings and gears.
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Ouch. Thanks for the warning. I was thinking more of running the new oil for N miles, then drain and refill. With synthetic that could get expensive.
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Drive the car to get the transaxle oil warm. Let it drain for an hour or two and then refill. You'll be good.
Different oils can "leak" at different rates. Monitor your oil level for a while to get an idea of what's up.
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This is an old topic, but there is much useful info in it. I am planning to drain and refill my 336 gearbox, and have previously used Castrol Transmax Manual Multivehicle 75w-90 (under its former name of Syntrans 75w-90) in a Midget 1500 (Morris Marina) box, as that had yellow metal internals and a horrible gear change which the Castrol oil sorted out remarkably. If I've understood the preceding posts correctly, despite the transaxle sharing fluid with the gearbox, the correct oil is still a gear oil, and Although Castrol say their modern equivalent is Transmax Manual EP80w, that's mineral based, and I was impressed by the effect the synthetic version had on the gearchange.
Is RedLine still the go to? Or are other oils being used? UK available oil particularly welcome. :)
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I posted this in another thread a while ago:
"I tried the Amsoil this summer and thought that my 5 speed shifted more harshly. Whatever was in there before was smoother. After reading a bunch of threads I ordered the Castrol Manual EP 80W Gear Oil. Seems to be the closest to spec, but not sold in the US. I ordered from DemonTweeks."
The Castrol worked well, so I am going to stick with it.
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Redline is magic as far as I am concerned, we had a Jeep XJ that would not shift from first to second with out grinding and Redline changed that.
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Is RedLine still the go to? Or are other oils being used? UK available oil particularly welcome. :)
When I first got my car on the road, I had a rough 1 - 2 shift. I took my car to a shop I trusted and he swore Red Line would straighten it out. When I was racing and Red Line was new on the scene, I heard a lot of racers say that it was amazing and smoothed out their shifts. So it wasn’t new to me but I was still skeptical. I tried it and it did smooth my shifts! I now use Red Line for motor and tranny oil.
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I am...skeptical that Redline is 100% of the improvements people are seeing, I'd wager 30-70% of it is just putting in new fluid.
That said, in the Corvair transaxle (same setup as the Europa with shared oil, and more aggressive final drive hypoid offset) I've regularly switched between StaLube 85w90 GL4 gear oil and redline 75w90NS, consistently noting the fresh redline seems better than the fresh straight gear oil.
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If you want to go down a rat hole, join the Subaru boys:
Some have settled on this formula - Scotty's Cocktail
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=920674&highlight=%22Uncle+Scotty%27s%22+cocktail (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=920674&highlight=%22Uncle+Scotty%27s%22+cocktail)